Updates on the Royal Navy's CVF project

So do you folks think that the idea that they will produced a stretched T45 as a cruiser (maybe with TacToms) and a shortened T45 as a frigate is a genuine option ? I can see it has its attractions to the bean counters.

No doubt they will wait and see if the Daring is any good first before deciding

I think the Royal navys Frigate replacement plans have been put on hold for the moment with the type 23s being put through a life extension plan instead.

Correct. Since the Future Surface Combatant programme was suspended/cancelled, we won’t be seeing any new frigates any time soon. It would have been nice to have something in the pipeline, but the T-23s will just have to last a bit longer. At least the T-42s are going and we’ll have the Darings to replace them – that’s more important than new frigates at the moment.

The stretched T-45 is looking like a likely candidate. Mixed in with some smaller GCs it should provide the RN with a flexible escort fleet for the new carriers, though when we’ll see them is a different matter – not in time to see HMS Queen Elizabeth enter service that’s for sure.

I just hope Dr Reid gets the MoD’s budgeting sorted.

The Oceans engines may prove upgradeable as the RR Crossley engines she is fitted with are apparently available with more power, but no doubt that would need to wait until a major refit. I suspect Rolls Royce could find a solution if asked

Aside from her slower then satisfactory speed HMS Ocean has proven to be a very useful vessel to the navy so I expect she will be retained in service for a long time. Its well known that the navy would like another LPH to complement her in service but with the current state of the defence budget thats a distant hope at the moment. For that matter considering the deep refit that the Ark Royal went through during the 90’s plus the further refit she is receiving now I can easily see her being retained in the LPH role minus her ski jump after her sisters have been retired.

With HMS Oceans under performance it will be interesting to see if this is adressed in a future refit. Maybe fitting her with the type of diesels in the new generation of fast container ships would help?

I think the Royal navys Frigate replacement plans have been put on hold for the moment with the type 23s being put through a life extension plan instead. The navy is keen to have a replacement for the batch 3 type 22s possibly based on a stretched type 45 variant. The global corvette is being examined as a way too bring an affordable type into service to complement a small buy of stretched type 45 and allow the older type 23s to be retired. Funnily the concept muted by the MOD for the global corvette is remarkably similar to the concept for the unsuccesful type 21 Amazon class. It will be interesting to see if new technology will allow a small vessel with a small crew be able to carry enough of a punch for the Royal navy.

Tin wing has a point. My own hunch is that the RN may end up with two CVF’s and two LPH’s at about 2016. As to whether this means that Ocean is retired and two new vessels built or she is retained and a new LPH with more capability is built, thats a moot point and depends on money. The RN know that with an ever smaller navy that they need innovative options to cover contingencies and the ability to operate an F35 (or maybe a few old Harrier’s) off another platform could be very useful if one of the CVF’s was unavailable or damaged. All speculation of course, but something like this would nicely put the icing on what would be an expeditionary capabilty second only to the USA in this part of the globe.

Now quite where they would get the frgates to support that little lot is a different matter…………..A cheap Global Corvette project perhaps ? :diablo:

That would be a realistic solution especially considering that HMS Ocean which was built to commercial standards cost less to build than one type 23 frigate.

The only problem is that the HMS Ocean is a complete failure from the standpoint of its entirely unacceptable low speed. In operations off Siera Leone, it was entirely obvious that 18 knots was inadequate for a ship carrying personel.

We live in an era when container and Ro-Ro ships cruise at 22-25 knots. The great irony is that the RN’s commercially procured Ro-Ro can arrive at an overseas destination long before the embarked Royal Marines can.

There have been various rumours that the RN will extend the current study into a new LPH to replace the Ark Royal when it retires in 2012-14 with a ship capable of flying the F-35’s if required. The RN are past masters at getting this sort of thing by the politico’s and the bean counters without them noticing so it wouldn’t surprise me if it were capable of operating the F35 (no doubt with some cheap modifications) when they select their next platform.

That would be a realistic solution especially considering that HMS Ocean which was built to commercial standards cost less to build than one type 23 frigate.

There have been various rumours that the RN will extend the current study into a new LPH to replace the Ark Royal when it retires in 2012-14 with a ship capable of flying the F-35’s if required. The RN are past masters at getting this sort of thing by the politico’s and the bean counters without them noticing so it wouldn’t surprise me if it were capable of operating the F35 (no doubt with some cheap modifications) when they select their next platform.

What some don’t know about large LHA/LHD Class Ships. They carry so much equipment and troops. They have little room for stores. (i.e. for aircraft) During the Second Gulf War. Two LHA’s acted as Harrier Carriers. Which, worked to a degree. Yet, they had to be continuely re-supplied. Further, as they were fixed and not moving. The usual re-supply wouldn’t work. So, they had LCAC’s going back and forward with munitions. Driving up the stern ramps and into the ship.

Therefore in the case of RN usage, the air wing component will get more “space”. Afterall, a class of three of this for RN would probably be way too much capacity for their Marines.

If that’s the case why not buy a modified WASP class with F35B operation in mind. That way the RN will have a carrier and amphibous assult ship in one hull…much more efficient in my opinion. WASPs are pretty large “carriers”. Add a ski ramp. Even that will significantly improve over the current RN capabilities.

What some don’t know about large LHA/LHD Class Ships. They carry so much equipment and troops. They have little room for stores. (i.e. for aircraft) During the Second Gulf War. Two LHA’s acted as Harrier Carriers. Which, worked to a degree. Yet, they had to be continuely re-supplied. Further, as they were fixed and not moving. The usual re-supply wouldn’t work. So, they had LCAC’s going back and forward with munitions. Driving up the stern ramps and into the ship.

Labour’s power base isn’t dependent on defence workers, it wouldn’t surprise me if they gained votes from cancelling defence projects.

In my opinion the CVF has very little political backing and will get cancelled as soon as it becomes inconvenient for the government to pay for it. Then we will probably buy a foreign made hull and spend twice as much fitting it out! 🙁

If that’s the case why not buy a modified WASP class with F35B operation in mind. That way the RN will have a carrier and amphibous assult ship in one hull…much more efficient in my opinion. WASPs are pretty large “carriers”. Add a ski ramp. Even that will significantly improve over the current RN capabilities.

I agree with Scooter…….hope the Brits have the stones to actually build them………not EVERY crisis in the world is going to be in the mid-east with a plethora of convienient airbases…….and Harrier Carriers are just no substitute for “the Real Thing”……

Labour’s power base isn’t dependent on defence workers, it wouldn’t surprise me if they gained votes from cancelling defence projects.

In my opinion the CVF has very little political backing and will get cancelled as soon as it becomes inconvenient for the government to pay for it. Then we will probably buy a foreign made hull and spend twice as much fitting it out! 🙁

Hopefully not…………………that said we are getting close to the point of no return for the CVF Program. I for one have my fingers crossed! :rolleyes:

On the other hand the areas likely to benifit from jobs building CVF are in Labour held areas, or am I wrong…….

Labour’s power base isn’t dependent on defence workers, it wouldn’t surprise me if they gained votes from cancelling defence projects.

In my opinion the CVF has very little political backing and will get cancelled as soon as it becomes inconvenient for the government to pay for it. Then we will probably buy a foreign made hull and spend twice as much fitting it out! 🙁

On the other hand the areas likely to benifit from jobs building CVF are in Labour held areas, or am I wrong…….

PA2 pics and info here http://frn.beedall.com/pa2.htm

It looks like there are going to be a lot of benefits for the French if they choose to build a version of the CVF. The UK paid for the design and development and the French will probably get the chance to bid for some of the CVF construction contracts under the new Defence Industrial Strategy 🙁

The CVF is another Tony Blair ego project and the Royal Navy should know better by now that it’s unwise to place so many hopes in such a expensive project. The UK only needed to replace the Invincible class and the Sea Harrier fleet, what was wrong with a affordable, easy to build V/STOL carrier and the STOVL F-35B JSF for our defence needs?

Maybe the Labour party has more conflicts planned to justify the need for the CVF 🙁

Every recent model shown at defexpos and the CG’s from thales and the other companys involved show a single Island arrangement.

Hmm, Sealord, what is your source on that? The proposals, known as Project Romeo, which was the original PA2 proposal, Project Juliette, the follow on to Romeo, but also a straightforward French derivative of the CVF are all slightly different. The single island seems ungainly, and a twin island arrangement certainly seems the more likely.

Lets put it this way, the CVF’s will be the only carriers in th world with two Islands. Even the french who have selected a similar design have opted for only a single Island.

The real advantages are in terms of the exhaust ducting – the CVF has four large gas turbines, which need to have their exhaust in the island structure. If there were not two islands, the one island would be huge. The other reason is the separation of functions: the flag and command areas are fore, with aviation in the aft island. Personally, I suspect they just figured the Thales design looked better…