Indian Submarine Battle : Scorpene vs U-214

As far as AIP goes , The IN has chosen the German Fuel Cells over French MESMA , An internal study of the IN came up with the conclusion that the German Fuel Cells were much superior to the French MESMA.

One never knows how urgent is this AIP requirement wheather they would incorporated with the first sub itself and would be fitted on a later one.

One thing about the French Scorpene is that all the command & control ,sensors sonar and weapons suite ,SUBTICS are made by France so it would be much easier to transfer the tech as part of the deal.

Also one grey area is what specification has the IN asked for , the Scorpene is a very customizable submarine and cost could vary depending on whats fitted and customised in the sub

But AIP is an upgrade to the scorpene, and its not an urgent requirement for the IN. Again, which has the best sensor suite and which is the quietest when running on diesels.

This can’t be a tough decision.

U-214 is coming with an AIP from start, and they do know how to make AIPs. Kockums, which had the first kind of AIP system operational on the Gotland class submarines way back in 1996 has recently sold sterling engines to the japanese subs (if I’m not completely mistaken). GSC offers fuel cells, and they have ’em operational on italian and german subs. Kockums is a part of GSC, so they have two different AIP systems operational and ready to sell. How many have the french, and how much experience do they have? Zero.

Before any smartass tries to say that AIP isn’t all that important;
go ask the french how they performed in combat duels against the swedish AIP submarine Halland a couple of years ago. Hint: Halland didn’t loose one single duel.

(Source: http://www.mil.se/index.php?lang=S&c=news&id=884 in swedish)

I would hate to have to make this decision, I mean it is not just about the raw performances listed in the Articles above, when it comes to submarines one has to take into account the noise each makes aswell as the relative sensor and communications fits. But I envy the IN for being in position to be able to choose.

Request for proposal for construction of two submarines Mazagon Dock Ltd. Mumbai initially was issued to four firms in 1997, out of which only one firm has responded.

Isnt It strange that just one responded.

I dont forsee they would go for U-214/212 without annoying a lot of people.

First The Navy , It would delay sub program by atleast 2 years( inspite of tall claims made by HDW ) , Procurement is a long drawn up process and the whole things needs to be retendered and reevaluated by the Navy, MOF , MOD and Finally CCS.
And Navy feels that with Scorpene they are getting the best sub ( technically atleast)

Second France who has been waiting for tooo long and has been getting impatient as seen by statement by its ambassador , They now feel that both the Mirage deal aka MMRCA and Project 75 is a never ending process.

The bottom line is Money, India want to get what it wants with the lowest possible price and France wants to sell the best it has at a premium , And every thing that happens in bewteen is plain manouvering and Pysops by both countries.

Procurement of Submarines

(Source: Indian Ministry of Defence; dated Aug. 25, web-posted Aug. 30, 2005)

NEW DELHI — Request for proposal for construction of two submarines Mazagon Dock Ltd. Mumbai initially was issued to four firms in 1997, out of which only one firm has responded. Subsequently, it was decided to negotiate for indigenous construction of six submarines under transfer of technology from the French company. No final decision has, however, been taken by the Government in this regard.

This information was given by the Defence Minister Shri Pranab Mukherjee in a written reply to Dr. Rajesh Mishra and others in Lok Sabha today.

-ends-

I copied this news tit-bit from defence-aerospace website

India Close To Acquiring Scorpene Submarine

NEW DELHI, AUG 29: India is expected to clear the way for the purchase of six ‘Scorpene’ submarines from French companies DCN and Thales.

Senior officials told FE that the Cabinet would clear the $2 billion deal shortly as a prelude to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s three-day visit to France from September 11, on his way to New York next month.

The submarines will be built at the state-owned Mazagon dockyard in Mumbai, with technical assistance and equipment from French companies. The submarines are to be delivered between 2010 and 2015. As part of the deal, the submarines would be armed with EADS SM-39 Exocet anti-ship missiles.

However, Naval headquarters is worried that its fleet, “particularly the submarine strike arm”, was de-commissioning vessels faster than it can acquire them. “We have waited long, too long actually,” said the chief of naval staff, Admiral Arun Prakash, when asked about the proposal to acquire the Scorpene submarines.

The Cabinet committee on security is expected to meet later this week to discuss the proposal on Scorpene submarines, that had been cleared by naval headquarters nearly a year back. India has been in negotiations with France to acquire and jointly develop six 1,500-tonne Scorpene submarines at the Mazagon docks.

Sources in the defence ministry said that there has been indication that the deal had currently been put on hold due to comments of the French ambassador in India, Dominique Girard, on the Airbus deal.

If Russian weapon systems are really made available for use on the 214 then its almost certainly a winner. The Indians put a considerable amount of pressure on the French to joint build the Scorpenes with Klub missile capabilities, which ended when only 6 units were to be aquired. This move is so sweet for the Indian interests it’s almost too good to be true! My knee-jerk reaction is that the Indian scorpene project is now dead.

I hope the mods can merge this thread into Indian Submarine Competition thread.

Austin, hope u don mind, TY.

Well the german offer is hard to refuse the price is really low considering that India would get not only some nice new subs but also an upgrade (including the same AIP system) for their Type 209s.
I just don’t know why HDW makes such an offer. There are a lot of navies who would buy these subs even without such a ‘generous’ deal. :confused: 😉

The deal is more to do with politics than commercial. 😀

Well the german offer is hard to refuse the price is really low considering that India would get not only some nice new subs but also an upgrade (including the same AIP system) for their Type 209s.
I just don’t know why HDW makes such an offer. There are a lot of navies who would buy these subs even without such a ‘generous’ deal. :confused: 😉

Ja Its possible 2 Akula but not four , the Possibility was confirmed by CNS in an interview to FORCE.

To be fair here well Boeing won on its merit also the file has been sent to CAG for further checks , just as they did with the Airbus deal with Indian Airlines ,so on face of it the Air India looks on its merit.

looking at the state of our International airport , I wonder even the if the Boing 777 is worth here, our Infra at Intl Airport is pathetic , also if we go for A-380 we would require major changes in existing infrastructure at the airport which I dun see happening in the next 2 decades.

Before buying these large A/C they should first massively upgrade the infra .

France will be pinched badly if they loose the Scorpene and Mirage deal , But India also knows the fact that if they intentionall try to put down france ( who supported India during N-Blast and prevented sanctions etc ) France would make the going difficult by selling Scorpene and Mirages to France.

As to why not the U-214 , well the U-214 has no missile to offer of its own , and even the Combat management system is from a third country , with Scorpene India gets the TOT for SUBTICS and will also get the Block-3 Exocet , perhaps future Naval SCALP.

Most Important is the present CNS statement that the U Boats were considered along with the Scorpene and Scorpene was selected over U boats on technical grounds , But later on IN will fit the MESMA on the Scorpene

This may have something to do with Airbus’ VP Nigel Harwood’s recent impertinence regarding Air India’s decision not to sign for the A380.
Airbus is (rightly) viewed as a French company, so when the French spun too hard, India decided to hurt them by including the Germans in the submarine programme.

From where this number of four akulas come from? I thought it was just two.

Exactly what i said to him in a chat 😉

Interesting that the Germans are offering the fuelcell right from day one where as the French are offering it as an upgrade later on.

What I would like to know is how is the IN plans for procurement of the four Akula class subs going?

I hope the U214 will win, the Germans build the best smallish submarines. 🙂