I was reading some old books about the RAn and I came across ships fitted with the Limbo Mk 10 Anti Sub system. I’ve read books (though fictional) that have had the USN having to call in various navies like the RN with it’s limbo system because it’s torpedos aren’t really effective above a certain depth (50ft I think it was).
I remember seeing the old River class Frigates tied up alongside down at Garden Island back in the late 70’s and thinking that they broke something (I was too young to understand what they were- they were actually the barrels of the limbo).
Anyway I know that SAAB Bofors has a mortar system as do the Russians, so lets start a thread here on the ships that employ this system and their tactics.
The Mk 10 Limbo aboard the former HMS Plymouth
By: Arabella-Cox - 11th May 2005 at 08:14
> Garry B
> fired in an inner layer is a barrage of mine rockets
This is provided the sub does not keep the torpedo deep,under the iso-thermal layer until it is needed to come up to attack the target.
The Mine layer is created custom designed for the incoming torpedo. Obviously if the torpedo is deep then the mines will be layed deeper than normal… if it moves shallower as it apporaches the mines then the noise of the torpedo might set off the mines proximity systems or they may not. It is a layer and one opportunity to stop a threat. There is no such thing as a 100% shield.
By: Adrian_44 - 9th May 2005 at 04:41
Re: Anti Sub Mortars
> Austin
> I thinks this system could also act as a Hard Kill system for Incoming
> Torpedoes
All major navies are searching for hard kill weapons to stop torpedos. Which ever country comes up with an effective system first will have an edge very much like the USAF having stealth.
About three years ago the University of Pennsylvania designed an anti- torpedo torpedo! While around six feet long it is small enough in diameter that it fits in the noise maker tubes.
The US Navy has used the Mk-46 in this way. Even if it doesn’t doesn’t make contact, if the explosion is anywhere close it will break the control wires and most likely damage the sensor or propulsion system of the torpedo.
> Austin
> the RBU-6000 is very effective from shallow to deep waters
Yes it creates both a noise screen as well as bubble screen. Both are effective in one situation or another. A wide spread of mortars will allow the target to maneuver without the sub having a solid track on what the new course of the target is.
If the target waits until the mortars are allowed to go off first the “captital ship” can turn on it Prairie Masker system. This reduces and alters the sound signature of the ship. It can make a carrier sound like a destroyer and make a destroyer sound like patrol boat.
> JonS
> ASW mortars could be quite useful against them some also have secondary
> anti torpedo capability.
Do you mean like the US Navy’s “hedge hog?” Modern subs run to deep to realistically use this weapon. Its explosion can cause the sound to bounce off the SSK to some sound detction device.
Defense is also based upon timely knowledge of the torpedo is approaching.
> Garry B
> fired in an inner layer is a barrage of mine rockets
This is provided the sub does not keep the torpedo deep,under the iso-thermal layer until it is needed to come up to attack the target.
Adrian
By: Ja Worsley - 6th May 2005 at 18:18
some ships are still out there with the Mk 10 limbo system, IIRC the Bangladeshi Navy has some.
By: mpa - 2nd May 2005 at 14:12
Oh, i just remember that iranian navy uses the MK10 ASW mortar aboard its 3 Alvand frigates.
By: mpa - 2nd May 2005 at 14:05
French navy uses a 375mm ASW rocket launchers since 1954. It’s a derivative of a Bofors system. 17 A69 light frigates (designed for ASW in coastal/shallow waters) have been fitted with this weapon. Currently there is only 3 A69 fitted with the 375 RL, the remaining A69 have a COMSAT antenna and a Simbad SHORAD instead. Belgian navy uses this system aboard its Wielingen frigates.
Charecteristics:
rocket lenght: 2.15 m
rocket weight: 302 kg
practical range: 3100 m
launch rate: 1 rocket per second
By: Ja Worsley - 2nd May 2005 at 12:24
What about the Bofors system? I’ve seen the twin barrel system on the Indonesian ships
By: Arabella-Cox - 2nd May 2005 at 08:03
The Russian system uses phases and layers… the rockets initially fired are decoys that are fired to max range. Also fired in an inner layer is a barrage of mine rockets. If an incoming torpedo (which will be travelling rather slower than any antiship missile of course) is not diverted by the decoys it enters a small minefield with proximity fuzed mines that will blow up when the noise of the torpedos reaches a certain volume. (ie they are a certain distance away). If that fails (note the mine feild will be layed based on target information from the sonars do it will not be large, it will be small and dense and in the path of the torpedo so its chances of stopping the torpedo are pretty good) then the final layer is activated… a tight cluster of depth charge rockets set for the depth of the torpedo or slightly lower to try and kill it directly.
By: snake65 - 2nd May 2005 at 07:34
This is the newest system Russians have – UDAV-1. It’s more anti-torp, as it has range of only 3000 m, using two types of grenades – acoustic decoy and barrage grenade.
By: JonS - 1st May 2005 at 21:22
i believe swedes have elma, primarily russians introduced ASW mortars to make up for their lack of ASW helos/effective sonars and along with necassary cost associated with operating them. They formed a layered defense with RBU-600/1000/1200/6000 along with torpedoes and SS-N-14/15. In the west asw mortars fell out of popularity since soviet threat was mainly from the russian oscars armed with their shipwrecks so air borne ASW platforms were better suited with dealing with those.
But profileration of SSKs who are quite hard to detect and sink employing sonars/torpedoes but dont have speed and dive capability to escape depth charges. ASW mortars could be quite useful against them some also have secondary anti torpedo capability.
By: Austin - 1st May 2005 at 17:21
Mate the RBU-6000 is very effective from shallow to deep waters , the only disadvantage is its short range , 4-6 km , I think Russian have a follow on RBU-12000 with a range of 10-12 KM.
It make me think this is something equivalent of CIWS as far as ASW goes.
By: Ja Worsley - 1st May 2005 at 16:26
yeah those are the Russian systems I was talking about mate, apparently these systems are more effective at shallower depths than torpedos are. Maybe the US will introduce such a system on their Littoral Combat Ship, makes sence to me.
By: Austin - 1st May 2005 at 16:04
Well I am not too familiar with Western ASW mortars/rocket launchers , But The Indian Navy uses the RBU-6000 ASW rocket launchers , In all its newer ship , wheather Delhi Class , Talwar Class , the upcoming P-15A and the P-17 will too have these system, which proves that its a effective system .
Besides firing ASW rockets , depth charges , I thinks this system could also act as a Hard Kill system for Incoming Torpedoes , may not a highly synchronised system against a Torp , but an effective one .
To quote from BR about such system in Talwar ” Features the RPK-8 system, which uses a 12 barrelled RBU-6000 ASW launcher to fire the 212mm 90R anti-submarine missile or RGB-60 depth charges. The firing range is from 600 to 4300 metres, and the depth of engagement is up to 1000 metres. Two twin 533mm DTA-53-11356 fixed torpedo tube launchers are fitted amidships and fire the SET-65E/53-65KE torpedoes. The Purga anti-submarine fire-control system – a product of the Granit Central Scientific Institute – provides control for both the RBU-6000 and DTA-53 launchers. “
As we can see the Purga ASW FC system controls both the Torpedo as well as the RBU-6000 . Needless to say since the IN wants these to be in their newer ships , its quite an effective system.
RBU-6000
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May 1, 2005 at 12:50 pm