A Comparritive Study, Vittorio Veneto with Moskva/Leningrad and Jeanne d'Arc

thanks for the voyage info, might see if I can’t make a port call and catch up with her 😉

The Jeanne d’Arc is to remain in service untill (through) 2006 and will eventually be replaced in her role by one two new BPC (Mistral & Tonnerre) that are currently under construction

” Le navire devrait rester en service jusqu’en 2006 et être remplacé à terme par l’un des deux nouveaux BPC Mistral et Tonnerre actuellement en construction. “
http://frenchnavy.free.fr/ships/helicopter-carrier/jeanne-arc/jeanne-arc_fr.htm

But it’s good to see that the ship is indipsencible!!!

Yes. But because we don’t have budget to replace her …

Interesting, when she was here the Captain said that this was her last voyage, they even had it in the press. But it’s good to see that the ship is indipsencible!!!

Jon: Mate the Jd’A retired from service last year,

The JdA is still in service. She serves as a training vessel for midshipmen coming from naval academy and she makes a trip around the world every year (called “naval application campaign”). This year she has been sent in Indonesia to help victims of the Tsunami disaster (operation Beryx).

:rolleyes: figures!

Snake65 … I stand corrected!

Penguin
Mk 1 20 km (11 nm)
Mk 2 30 km (16 nm)
Mk 3 40 km (22 nm)
http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-119.html

Penguin Mk 3 for fighter- and patrol aircraft range of more than 55 km
http://www.kongsberg.com/eng/kda/products/missiles_space/missiles/mk3/

Penguin Mk 3 range, 35 km (25 nm)
http://www.eurofighter.starstreak.net/common/AG/penguin.html

DISCLAIMER:
“Actual achievable range will depend on a great number of factors and may be no where near those quoted.”

Only the assault version Ka 29 carries missiles (AT-6 Spiral), other armed Helix variants (27/28/32) carry only homing torpedo, torbedo rocket and a fw types of bombs/depthcharges.

Ka-32A7
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=76110&stc=1

Penguin is 55km? Had no idea. STILL like Sea Skua……..VERY effective.

Yes the Russian helos do have a missile system, but I can’t remember what it is off the top of my head.

As for the Italians yes they have the Otomat Mk-1 and Mk-2 missiles

Only the assault version Ka 29 carries missiles (AT-6 Spiral), other armed Helix variants (27/28/32) carry only homing torpedo, torbedo rocket and a fw types of bombs/depthcharges.

As for the Italians, they also use the (25km) MARTE MK2/S lightweight heliborne Antiship missile system. The french use the (17km) AS 15 TT lightweight anti-ship weapon system. This is similar in range to the British Sea Skua. The chinese have the (15-20km) Ying Ji-7 (YJ-7) which was exported to Iran as C-701. The (55km) norwegian Penguin is currently the world’s most advanced small air-to-surface anti-ship missile.

Ka-25 used only anti-sub torpedoes. She was shown with AT-3 Sagger like missiles at one of the air shows in Moscow, but these were dummies. Ka-27 uses anti-sub missiles APR-2 and APR-3 and there is a version of land based Ka-32A7 with two X-35 for protection of 200 mile zone. Ka-29 can carry 4 Shturm anti-tank missiles.

Wasn’t one of our Spruances supposed to be to an “air capable” design, but it would have cost too much so it was built to regular DD design?

DD 997 USS Hayler, last of class was supposed to be completed as an air capable ship with an enlarged flight deck for additional helos or VTOL fixed wings. Apparently Congress liked it but the Navy didn’t and she was completed in standard configuration.

Daniel

Yes the Russian helos do have a missile system, but I can’t remember what it is off the top of my head.

As for the Italians yes they have the Otomat Mk-1 and Mk-2 missiles

Little off topic, but do the Russians have a helo missile comparable to Sea Skua? I’v allways considered that to be the best helo missile in the world…….much better than Penguin………Do Italian choppers have a missile system?

I hadn’t heard that, I’ll have a look now mate, but it sounds plausable, the Yanks didn’t want to get left behind.

Wasn’t one of our Spruances supposed to be to an “air capable” design, but it would have cost too much so it was built to regular DD design?

Snake: excellent mate, 10 points.

VV only carried 6 AB-212’s on a normal scale plus a couple of smaller helo’s for ship board training, (She was also used to train naval pilots on how to land at sea since she had such a large deck, pupils could make mistakes on a clear deck and thus progress to smaller decks later on).

Moskva class were indeed very powerful and one would hate to go up against this class in anything (Sub, Surface or Air, didn’t matter toi these ships, they’d kill them all). I would counter that these ships were trully multiroled ships, you could also use them as Amphibious Airbourne Assult ships. I remember reading one time how this was done in an excercise once just to show it could be done. Instead of ASW Ka-25’s they used utility versions and carried 12 troops apiece times 14 helos and established a beach head for a heavier assult force to move in (this was an excercise in the 70’s).

Jeanne d’Arc is a hard call to make as to her role. All the texts I have state that she was used in the following roles in order of priority:
1. Airbourne Helo Assult, 14x Super Ferlons
2. ASW helo carrier, 8x Lynx
3 Helo training ship, various types depending on who needs the training.

Since the introduction of the La Foudre class LSD’s much of the first and third roles now fall on this class, where as the ASW role falls on the ASW ships as there is no specific carrier for them now (another legacy of the Cold War ending).

Mistrale is soon to come on line and this will bring back a small carrier to the Marine Nasional though nothing could ever replace Jeanne d’Arc, she was a good ship.

You have to keep in mind, that although similar in appearance, these ships were designed to different operational purposes. Vittorio Veneto besides her role as major AAW/ASW unit, intended to provide SAM cover for ASW ships (and add some helicopters of her own) was also designed as fleet flagship. Her helicopter complement was 9 in wartime and she was able to store only 6 in hangar, but of the light/medium class (AB.212)as opposed to Super Frelons and Ka-25 of the other two.
I’ve never been able to say for sure, which was Jeanne d’Arc primary mission -training ship or helicopter carrier, but at least she was intended to carry 8 Super Frelons in hangar at wartime (in peacetime she carried a mix of 7-8 Alouettes, Lynx and Gazelles and Pumas, though).
Moskva was intended as a mainstay of long range antisubmarine system to encounter US boomers with Polaris missiles. She had a compliment of 14 Ka-25 in hangar, very powerful sonar (for 1960s) and 96 SAMs comparable to Terrier/ Standard. She had powerplant of the same type as Grozny cruisers (Projekt 58) and it was reliable enough during the first part of her life, but the quality of maintenance and mid-life repairs led to her early retirement

I allways did like the Italian Navy……..they have a very well rounded fleet, not just geared to ASW, but with a very good ASuW capability as well. And they have allways made their ships FAST. Most other European navies have settled for bout 28 knt top speed, but the Italians are at 30+ and staying.

Didn’t the Italians have 2 earlier cruisers that had a couple of helos and led up to VV? They always have made very handsom ships….

Andrea Doria class helicopter cruisers
Displacement: 6,500 tons full load
Dimensions: 489.5 x 56.5 x 16.5 feet/149.2 x 17.2 x 5 meters
Propulsion: Steam turbines, 4 boilers, 2 shafts, 60,000 shp, 30 knots
Crew: 485
Armor: none (?)
Armament: 1 Terrier SAM (40 missiles), 8 76 mm AA, 6 12.75 inch torpedo tubes
Aircraft: 4 helicopters
Concept/Program: The first major Italian warships of postwar design and construction, these were combined AAW/ASW ships featuring a large helicopter facility. A third ship was planned, but deferred in favor of a larger ship.

Design: Hull based on an enlarged destroyer design. Helicopter deck and above-decks hangar aft, cruiser weapons forward. Intended to operate 3 heavy ASW helicopters but were too small; operated 4 light ASW helos instead.
Modifications: Recieved SM-1ER missiles in place of Terrier during late 1970’s refits.

Units:
Andrea Doria (C553) – Built by CNR, Riva Trigoso. Laid down 11 May 1958, launched 27 Feb 1963, completed 23 Feb 1964.
Major refit and modernization 1976-78. Stricken for disposal 19 July 1991, presumably scrapped.

Caio Duilio (C554) – Built by Castellammare. Laid down 16 May 1958, launched 22 Dec 1962, completed 30 Nov 1964. Austere refit and conversion to training cruiser 1979-80. Decommissioned to reserve 15 Nov 1989, stricken for disposal 19 July 1991, sold 31 December 1992, but had not been scrapped as of April 1998.

Enrico Dandolo(C555) – Cancelled in favor of Vittorio Veneto

Vittorio Veneto class helicopter cruisers

Displacement: 8,850 tons full load
Dimensions: 589 x 63.5 x 20 feet/179.5 x 19.4 x 6 meters
Propulsion: Steam turbines, 4 boilers, 2 shafts, 73,000 shp, 30.5 knots
Crew: 550
Armor: none
Armament: 1 Terrier SAM/ASROC ASW, 8 76 mm AA, 6 12.75 inch torpedo tubes
Aircraft: 9 helicopters
Concept/Program: A greatly enlarged and improved version of the previous class. A second unit was cancelled. In addition to the AAW & ASW roles, this ship served as fleet flagship until replaced by Garibaldi.

Design: Similar to Andrea Doria but with a larger and deeper hull; the hangar was fitted below the flight deck, within the hull. The missile magazine had a third drum, increasing missile capacity by one third.
Modifications: Modernized 1981-84 with 4 Otomat SSM and 3 twin 40 mm AA added, SM-1ER replaced Terrier.
Operational: Served mostly as a training ship post-1985, when her fleet flagship role was taken over by Garibaldi.
Built by Castellammare. Laid down 10 June 1965, launched 5 Feb 1967, completed 12 July 1969.Modernized 1981-84; served mostly as a training ship post-1985.

Didn’t the Italians have 2 earlier cruisers that had a couple of helos and led up to VV?

Yes, Andrea Doria (C553) and Caio Duilio (C554). These names will be reused for the Italian Horizon destroyers, by the way.