Hellenic Navy (News & Views).

Pictures taken from NATO Exercise PROUD MANTA 11.

The climax of the slowly unfolding drama was the dramatic appearance of the Greek SSK class submarine PROTEFS, which for the benefit of the awaiting photographers, came to the surface.

www.manp.nato.int/news_releases/mcnaples/pressreleases11/NR_05_11.html

Exercise pictures here:
http://www.manp.nato.int/exercises/proud_manta_11/PhotoSel.html

Nice big pictures of PROTEUS / ΠΡΩΤΕΥΣ (S-113)

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The Greek PM in the parliament denied that the incident with the submarine ever happened. Defencenet insists that has happened and that the helicopter pilots are outraged.

Since both Defencenet and the PM are known for their occasional lies, 2 things happen:

Either the greek PM is “burrying” the incident, as a part of his appeasement policy and his ongoing effort to “prove” the improvement in the greek-turkish relations, since he is the one that inaugurated this policy in 1999.

Or, Defencenet came up with one of the usual hoaxes with the usual aim of attacking the goverment.

This is really a tough choice… It’s a competition of unreliability.

It is not really tough choice .Defencenet wins hands down this one .

The Greek PM in the parliament denied that the incident with the submarine ever happened. Defencenet insists that has happened and that the helicopter pilots are outraged.

Since both Defencenet and the PM are known for their occasional lies, 2 things happen:

Either the greek PM is “burrying” the incident, as a part of his appeasement policy and his ongoing effort to “prove” the improvement in the greek-turkish relations, since he is the one that inaugurated this policy in 1999.

Or, Defencenet came up with one of the usual hoaxes with the usual aim of attacking the goverment.

This is really a tough choice… It’s a competition of unreliability.

This is a story, reported by Defencenet, probably linked to the Papanikolis. There is no official confirmation till now.

So, according to Defencenet:

Last Thursday morning, in the area between Kea and Andros island, 2 greek Sea Hawk helicopters detect a periscope on the sea surface.

In red the submarine position:

The Sea Hawks picked it up on the radar by pure coincidence, since they were going for routine trainning in the area. After contact with their HQ, they are informed that the submarine is “hostile” and in greek waters, less than 6 nm from the closest island. The helicopters drop HELRAS sonar. The submarine is initially at shallow depth, not moving, then it start diving, changing speeds and direction, towards the north and trying to hide in some sea canyons. But to no avail. The chase went on for hours, with a 2nd set of Sea Hawks arriving and at the end taking political order to drop their sonars at the sides of the sub, to create a “barrier-corridor” for it, so that it can be escorted out of the territorial waters. In deed, at the end, it changed course towards east and was accompanied till international waters.

According to Defencenet, sources in the Navy say that the “hostile” sub, was probably there for days, hoping that Papanikolis would pass from there, in order to register its acoustic signature for the library of threats of the turkish navy. This, because the greek ministry of defence, had anounced that Papanikolis would go out in the Aegean for trainning.

http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=16878&Itemid=139

Of course, since this is only a Defencenet news, i couldn’t swear on it. For example, the fact that the submarine changed course, was manouvering near the bottom of the sea and was switching speeds up and down, according to Defencenet, is a sign that the captain of the sub was “in panic”. I would think that this is normal procedure for a submarine captain that tries to evade the helicopters… But as usual, Defencenet managed to present the things in a tabloid-ish manner, that makes you wonder how reliable the entire story is.

Example:
“Suddenly it starts to move and not just to move, but also manouvering near the bottom, which is certainly unknown to the captain for such mission types. It moves with increasing and decreasing speed at about 4 knots, tries to hide in sea canyons, but the 2 Hawks don’t lose him for a second. Under normal circumstances the helicopters would have destroyed with torpedoes the submarine. There is no sub in the world that in such depth can evade torpedoes from 2 helicopters and in particular this submarine, whose captain was showing obvious signs of panic”.

“The 2 greek helicopters pursue the turkish sub like the hunting dogs a wounded prey, which really shows like it doesn’t know where it’s going, since instead of heading east… it heads north!”

Who’s writing this? Someone who aspires to sell the next James Bond film script to Hollywood? Maybe the sub should have tried to “evade” by keeping course towards Turkey and constant speed? Maybe raise the periscope too again so to show that he is not “panicked”?

Anyway, at least, given the timing, of the Papanikolis’ exit to the Aegean for the 1st time, it’s plausible.

Re; the sonar missing or losing a component, we cant see that as it’s under the water line.

Yes, but Defencenet somehow got a picture of it, but doesn’t want to show it. :rolleyes: When i first read in Defencenet “feather-torn chicken” and “torn from several parts of the vessel” i thought that the sub has lost many tiles in multiple parts. Yet another exageration of Defencenet. It seems that it was in 1 area instead.

About the sonar, I intend the information from “Adrias”, here:

http://www.defencenet.gr/forum/index.php?topic=19474.0

I trust him more than Defencenet. And he says that the sonar is intact. At least he doesn’t pretend to be serious writing about “chicken without feathers” or “let’s see who wears pants and who skirts” or “peeled off like a playmobil” like the so called serious journalist of Defencenet. Once upon a time, Defencenet was pubblishing the best magazine. Ever since the change of ownership, it followed a downwards spiral for me to the point that i stopped buying simply because the teenager-like way of writing was getting at my nerves. Not to mention the blatant political bias and support for specific weapons. The peak was when they pubblished an obvious photoshop picture of the greek parliament in flames, presenting it as official picture used by turkish Aselsan company to sell her products. Only a moron wouldn’t understand that a) it was too badly photoshoped to be used by company, b) that it’s impossible for a company to use as advertisement for her rockets the “bombed parliament” of a neighbour country. And yet they published that as “shocking news”. After that, as well another incident with yet another gaffe they did pubblishing information from a turkish prank as “news”, about the Milgem, for me, Defencenet has to prove its news.

So regarding the reports of a 8m square piece coming away from the conning tower take a look at the HN picture No.DSC_2624.jpg Hi rez version (I use ACDsee to zoom in), look at port side panel directly under the Sub’s name plate , notice the colour difference of this panel and also look at right hand seam and also notice what appears to be some over paint to the adjacent panel. Another clue look at the panels rivets they all look black and freshly painted as apposed to the other adjacent panels which show some signs of paint loss.

I thought the same even by not looking at the high resolution pictures. Even the low resolution show something weird on the side panel.

I also believe as reasonable the explanation of Adrias at post no. 82:

“As far as i know from the tests we do in the shipyards, we always test the subsystems and the entire system beyond the official limits given by the manufacturer. If for example, the manufacturer gives 250 bar pressure limit for a “line of the submarine”, we and the Navy will go at 270 or 280 bars. If something is for depth of 100m, we will bring it to 110 or 120m. The same happened in the sea trials of Papanikolis, to put it simply, our people “ripped it”, they went over the manufacturer limits, surpassing at some occasions the sailing envelope. This doesn’t happen just in submarines, but to any ship of the Navy comes out of the shipyards. It’s a philosophy which would be good if it didn’t change. In this way we know that every weapons system is delivered can endure over the official limits and won’t “crack” with the first misfortune or in other words “better to crack it in the tests, rather than in a war operation”. This is the dogma of the shipyard as well as the Navy’s.

Every navy has the need to do voyage repairs occasionally since ships can encounter weather conditions which will lead to damage. The decision by the operator on whether to put mission or ship safety first will have some bearing, but no ship or submarine can be expected to be unbreakable (though politically charged ones may particularly good targets). Sounds like they decided to explore the limits, suffered some damage and repaired it within days. The rest of the HN submariner community may well be thankful for the resulting knowledge.

Yes, now that the dust is settling, i am more prone to believe the same. If Defencenet would provide the photo with the sonar missing i would maybe change my mind questioning the concealment of this news, but, in other case, i believe the version of “bloating” the issue for political reasons on the part of Defencenet. The Papanikolis is probably the only vessel in the HN that even a housewife has heard of, so anything related to it is very exploitable. Already Defencenet’s article caused questions about the event in the parliament and ironic comments in opposition press (Defencenet also openly supports the opposition).

Every navy has the need to do voyage repairs occasionally since ships can encounter weather conditions which will lead to damage. The decision by the operator on whether to put mission or ship safety first will have some bearing, but no ship or submarine can be expected to be unbreakable (though politically charged ones may particularly good targets). Sounds like they decided to explore the limits, suffered some damage and repaired it within days. The rest of the HN submariner community may well be thankful for the resulting knowledge.

Re; the sonar missing or losing a component, we cant see that as it’s under the water line.

So regarding the reports of a 8m square piece coming away from the conning tower take a look at the HN picture No.DSC_2624.jpg Hi rez version (I use ACDsee to zoom in), look at port side panel directly under the Sub’s name plate , notice the colour difference of this panel and also look at right hand seam and also notice what appears to be some over paint to the adjacent panel. Another clue look at the panels rivets they all look black and freshly painted as apposed to the other adjacent panels which show some signs of paint loss.

Defencenet didn’t pubblish photos of the sensor of the mine avoidance sonar…

Also, i tend to believe as more serious the opinion of a greek forum member who works in the Skaramanga shipyards and has worked in the U214 built in Greece. His opinion:

A GRP was detached in deed, but Defencenet made a drama out of it. The sonar sensor is intact. Such GRP losses have occured before in U209 types, when rapidly emerging under very bad weather. The trials of Papanikolis were on purpose too hard, remaining on surface in conditions where normally a submarine would submerge to avoid the bad weather. But instead it kept on surface to test the stability.

The Navy released photos from the official ceremony. Maybe it is my idea, but i think the side panel under the sub’s name, could be the part that went missing. Looks a bit different in colour and doesn’t seem 100% fitting (4th photo). If that is the case, then there is no sonar sensor there and Defencenet bloated the story to attack the goverment (wouldn’t be the first time).

The MoD, as expected, said that the sub won’t be sold (who would buy it? the Poles wanted discount, but if sold at less than bought, the minister would be accused of damaging the state and public interest and would end up in parlament enquiry comittee).

Media war between Defencenet and the Navy.

The Navy press center came out with announcement saying that in deed, a “small part” of the metal cover of the conning tower fell off, but this is “normal” after 2 months at sea trials at harsh conditions (8-9 Beuaforts wind , 6m high waves), where it proved that it is ok (including the inclination). It has already been repaired. It adds that Defencenet’s article is “inaccurate”, has “no source inside the Hellenic Navy Staff” and did not cross reference the news before putting them in the internet.

Defencenet replies, that the incident is not normal, that the Navy is concealing and says nothing about the sonar that was also detached and threatens to pubblish photo and asks “did the tile with the sonar fell off or did it not? Here’s the question”. Also denies that the Navy can control what 10.000 officers do,so that they can know whether or not they have sources in the Navy Staff.

http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=16301&Itemid=139

According to defencepoint.gr,

The piece that fell off is 8 square meters.

http://77.235.59.34/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1526:-lr&catid=27:industry-greece&Itemid=56

Papanikolis. No other submarine managed to cause so much scandal and soap opera clashes without actually sinking than this. Unlucky till the very end.

I am not submarine expert and don’t know whether the Navy Staff got orders from the political leadership to hide the sonar incident too or it’s Defencenet’s wrong information, but i do find strange that 8 square meter pieces fall off a conning tower and this is to be considered “normal due to the weather”.

God bless the crew!

According to Defencenet, claiming “absolutely reliable sources inside the ministry of defence”, Papanikolis arrived to Greece with a disaster…

– The GRP protective skin, outside the steel hull, lost plates in several points, arriving in Greece like a “chicken that lost feathers”. The plates “peeled off” because of the rough weather during navigation.

– The external anti-mine external sensor of the sonar, was during the navigation detached and lost in the bottom of the ocean.

Repair works were being done overnight so that the sub can look normal for the official entry in service ceremony tomorrow.

http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=16292&Itemid=139

I hope it proves to be one of the hoaxes of Defencenet, but otherwise it’s ridiculous.

Nov 30, 2010 Location: Kiel Canal, Germany

Returning from the shakedown cruise.

It’s beginning to look a lot like Christmas!!! 😉

That first picture with pap with ice reminds me of a scene from Metal Gear Solid! 😎

Papanikolis’ latest adventures off the coast of Norway in crew trainning of the hellenic navy:

Update on FREMM. The Supreme Naval Council made some new and final modifications on Nov. 1st. Compared to the standard french FREMM, the greek will have:

1) 24 VL MICA and replacement of the 2 SYLVER A70 and 2 SYLVER A43 with 1 SYLVER A70 and 3 SYLVER A50.

2) OTO Melara 127/64 LW instead of the 76 Super Rapid and replacement of the EO fire control system, with new hybrid electro-optical and radar (EO/R).

3) 2 20mm guns on each side of the bridge (bridge wings).

4) 2 helicopter missile replenishment areas, with capacity for storage for 4 Penguins and 20 Hellfires.

5) Instead of the OTO Melara STRALES, installation of Millenium with new hybrid EO-R fire control on the rear of the ship.

6) Controllable Pitch Propellers instead of Fixed Pitch propellers.

7) 2nd RAS (replenishment at sea) area on the starboard of the ship.

This is final (defencenet was wrong) and now the negotiations can start about the workshare.

http://77.235.59.34/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1196:-fremm&catid=31:defence-greece&Itemid=54

Also, about the financing of the program. It is obvious that the greek goverment can’t sign such a contract in 2011, which will be very tough year. So, a consorcium of french and a greek bank, are willing to give loans, at low interest rate. The first rate of 400 mln will be paid in 2018. The banks are PNP Paribas, Societe Generale and General bank of Greece.

According to defencenet, the banks are willing to cover the entire cost of 3,5 bln for 6 vessels, in a construction program that will last 15 years. It also says that the interest rate, will be the one that the french state has for its own loans, that is, below 3%.

According to defence point, the cost is 3,2 that the banks consorcium will cover + 1 bln that the greek state will pay directly.

http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15408&Itemid=48

The greek PM will be in France on Monday and the issue is expected to be put from the french side.

The Papanikolis became requirement for the sale of the shipyards to the Arabs… That’s the cynical side of the story…

A few days ago, the MoD confirmed that the Poles are interested in buying it, but they ask for a discount on the already discounted price that we paid for it. And selling it at lower price now, would risk to have the MoD accused of damaging the state, which is a period where the people aren’t very tolerant about politicians, would earn him a legal enquiry… So Papanikolis stays… The submarine that was christened, de-christened and re-christened…

And the shipyards weren’t sold to Abu Dhabi Mar directly, but to Privinvest, which holds 30% of ADM, which will continue the subs deliveries and construction (received 150 mln euros and 100 went to Thyssen) and probably will get some other navy programs (rumours say about upgrade of the MEKO and some corvette).

Janes article on same: http://www.janes.com/news/defence/naval/jni/jni101105_1_n.shtml

Finally the Greek flag was raised on the U214 sub ‘PAPANIKOLIS’ (S120) in Kiel 2/11/2010.

The Supreme Naval Council approved the final configuration of the FREMM. Main points:

1) The Oto Melara 127/64 Lightweight (LW) won’t be used. Instead, it will be used the Oto Melara 76/62 Super Rapid.

2) For self defence, against missiles, the Millenium will be used (probably in 2 points of the ship).

3) Propulsion will be the standard CODLOG that the French use. The CODLAG would give 2 more knots in speed, but is less reliable and requires more maintanance.

4) The propeller will be of steady (regular) “pace” instead of variable. The ship will lose something in agility, but will have reduced acoustic signature.

5) The weapons will be Exocet Block III, Scalp Naval, Aster 30 and MICA VL.

http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14794&Itemid=139

Photos from the “Parmenion” 2010 excersize. It is large scale drill, which involves army, navy and airforce:

Official acceptance from the Navy of the 4th Super Vita FAC, built at Elefsis shipyards: