Russia releases passive 'Alamo' for export

{quote]Garry, there’s no AS-11 in your picture…[/quote]

I know. I was merely showing that the R-77 and R-27 are different weapons and in the R-27E model especially there is a significant size difference between the two weapons.

At 350kgs the R-27E is similar in weight to the 40km range 300kg AS-12 ARM, while it is half the weight of the 110km range AS-17 and the 120km range AS-11.

Garry, there’s no AS-11 in your picture…

well i dont know look at AS-11 and adder side by side AS-11 has 145kg warhead and 50km range.
http://img133.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kh583dn8xa.jpg

The photo shows an AS-11 and an AA-12 Adder. The AA-12 Adder is a much smaller weapon than the AA-10 Alamo.

Note the White R-77 (second from the right in the back row of weapons) and the R-27ET (on the left hand side of the picture, the large grey missile with the red nosecap for the IR seeker).

well i dont know look at AS-11 and adder side by side AS-11 has 145kg warhead and 50km range.

The AS-11 actually has a launch range of up to 120km and a 150kg warhead. It has this warhead to take out not just the antenna that it hits but also any personel and other vehicles nearby. It is considered a “heavy” ARM as opposed to something like an AS-12 which is half its weight and has a warhead of 86-90kgs. The AS-11 has pretty much been replaced on paper by the Kh-31P which has a warhead of 85-89kgs or so but a higher average flight speed.

If it works and is cheap, then even better.

It is a fully modular system, so when one seeker is considered obsolete, like the SARH model having an alternative use is not that hugely important as a new ARH seeker could be used on the old motors. Having another seeker option just adds to the systems versatility however and makes the whole system even better.

This wouldn’t replace the AS-11, but more likely supplant the AS-12 in service.

agreed but—-
40kgs of HE will take out a radar antenna… 10kgs will blow an antenna over with a near miss…

well i dont know look at AS-11 and adder side by side AS-11 has 145kg warhead and 50km range.
http://img133.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kh583dn8xa.jpg

The fundimental problem is that an aircraft is a fast moving target. All you have to do to foil a passive radar guided AAM is shut off you radar.

And how will you know it is the right time to turn the thing off?
By the same logic we could argue here that IR-guided missiles are useless because all you have to do to fool their passive seeker is to shut your engines off..

Of course, the passive radar R-27 might just be a cheap conversion of the entirely obsolete semi-active radar guided R-27 – in the same way the Sidearm ARM was derived from the semi-active radar guided AIM-9C Sidewinder.

If it works and is cheap, then even better.

The fundimental problem is that an aircraft is a fast moving target. All you have to do to foil a passive radar guided AAM is shut off you radar.

Fighter radars are directional, not 360 degree beasts. By firing multiple weapons at a target it is hardly likely to shut down its radar… especially when two of the weapons you fire are IR and SARH or possibly ARH. If the enemy fighter turns off their radar then you have them at an advantage… they won’t see the incoming missiles till too late. If the fighters leave their radar on they won’t know which are IR and which are ARMs. As in keeping with the use of IR and SARH missiles, it just expands the fighter pilots options when engaging a target and increases the problems of the target. That has to be a good thing doesn’t it?

Of course, the passive radar guided R-27’s warhead is too small to be effective against ground targets.

40kgs of HE will take out a radar antenna… 10kgs will blow an antenna over with a near miss…

So if the concept is unworkable why do the Russians have this missile in service and are now releasing it for export?

Wonder if it can be used against ground based radars too, or if it is just for aircraft mounted radar. Would have been a surprise for Hawkeyes and AWACs planes I’d expect… when they detected R-27s coming in they’d probably expect they were either half SARH and half IR guided… they wouldn’t know some were ARMs…

…sneaky 🙂

The fundimental problem is that an aircraft is a fast moving target. All you have to do to foil a passive radar guided AAM is shut off you radar.

Of course, the passive radar guided R-27’s warhead is too small to be effective against ground targets.

Keep in mind that the American Shrike might have been loosely based on the Sparrow, but the warhead was far larger – and it was still inadequate.

Of course, the passive radar R-27 might just be a cheap conversion of the entirely obsolete semi-active radar guided R-27 – in the same way the Sidearm ARM was derived from the semi-active radar guided AIM-9C Sidewinder.

Yes that was the strategy,was a centralised attack not by 1 rocket but,sarh[with added IR],amos,and IC alamo,novator had to sell knowlege by government order under reorganisation to vympel.R-27p sarhalamo~ks-172 novator.

Actually, the United States tested and rejected the concept of a passive radar AAM back in the 1970s. The missile was called the Pave Brazo.

The concept is unworkable, unless you have an IR or semiactive/active radar seeker included with the primary passive radar unit.

So if the concept is unworkable why do the Russians have this missile in service and are now releasing it for export?

Wonder if it can be used against ground based radars too, or if it is just for aircraft mounted radar. Would have been a surprise for Hawkeyes and AWACs planes I’d expect… when they detected R-27s coming in they’d probably expect they were either half SARH and half IR guided… they wouldn’t know some were ARMs…

…sneaky 🙂

So the FGM-29 is the Zhuk MF PESA.
So where did the Zhuk-A designation come from? What sort of AESA is phazotron planning on showing in 2006- will it just be s few experimental T/R modules linked together like Tikhimov (sorry for the spelling) did, or will it be a full on Mig-35 AESA radar?

Did you known if FGM-29 radar is Zhuk-A AESA/AFAR radar?…

FGM-29 radar (http://www.missiles.ru/_foto/MAKS-2005_14-08/CRW_8955.jpg) it halfway to radar AESA.
The Phazotron plans to show real AESA in 2006…

Name Zhuk-A where did not refer to officially!
It is an fiction.

Here’s more info on Brazo and Seekbat:

Brazo: http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app4/brazo.html

Seekbat: http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-97.html

There were two trial programs, Brazo and Seekbat. Brazo was based on an AIM-7 airframe, Seekbat was based on an AGM-78 airframe. Seekbat was intended to target MiG-25Ps by homing in on radar emissions.

The basic concept is workable, but you need a stealthy missile and a stealthy launch platform to achieve the requisite amount of suprise.

export market for the first time.

Despite its age, the R-27P is a radical and effective beyond-visual-range (BVR) air-to-air weapon with no Western parallels. For decades, Soviet (now Russian) missile engineers have produced passive BVR AAMs that allowed their fighters to make undetected stealthy missile attacks.

Actually, the United States tested and rejected the concept of a passive radar AAM back in the 1970s. The missile was called the Pave Brazo.

The concept is unworkable, unless you have an IR or semiactive/active radar seeker included with the primary passive radar unit.

Evguenni good to see you here!, your webpage is phenomenal!

Did you known if FGM-29 radar is Zhuk-A AESA/AFAR radar?…

It looks very different to Zhuk-MFE Type-01-01M intended for MiG-29s, and its MTBF is too high for mechanical scanned radar (900 hours!)

I wonder if this has anything to do with the Indian MRCA competition, thus far the Russians appear to be putting everything they have into this.
Just think, a Mig-35 with an AESA radar (Zhuk-A), 3-D TVC, and R-77s and R-27EPs.

Vympel R-27EP – http://www.missiles.ru/_foto/MAKS-2005_weapons/R-27P_CRW_0157.jpg.