about novator 172 A2A? is it for real?

Cross-post from BRF, originally posted by Pit.

Russia develops K-100-1 for Su-35
Reuben F Johnson JDW Correspondent
Jane’s Defence Weekly – July 11, 2007

Officials from Agat Research Institute, which is developing the seeker, confirmed that the K-100-1 is the KS-172 relabelled and that the missile has a large diameter (350 mm) Agat seeker — a variant of the 9B-1103M seeker originally developed for an active-homing version of the R-27 AAM.

“We refer to this seeker design as the ‘shayba’ [Russian for ‘hockey puck’] when we are talking about it at the design bureau because it is wide and squat in its shape compared to the rest of the 9B-1103M derivatives,” an Agat technician said.

“The lock-on range for the seeker is 40 km, but this is of course one fifth or less than the overall range of the missile,” said one designer.

India, Russia negotiate partnership for a new missile

NEW DELHI, MAR 2 (PTI)
After their recent success in developing a supersonic cruise missile, Brahmos, India and Russia are negotiating a partnership for developing an ultra long range beyond-visual-range air to air missile.

The missile is at present being developed by the Russian guided weapons builder Novator and highly placed sources here indicated that India was involved in the project by way of investment and technical participation.

The missile, designated so far as R-172, is being developed by the Russians to be integrated with the fifth generation aircraft SU-35, with New Delhi likely to be a customer for its export version.

The new missle, the sources said, was aimed at engaging high asset airborne targets such as AWACS aircraft, air to ground surveillance and mid air refullers, which normally operate from stand off distance during battles.

The proposed acquisition assumes significance in the wake of recent media reports that Pakistan was in the process of purchasing such a missile from western countries to counter India’s moves to acquire Israeli AWACS and the recent induction of Uzbek IL-78 mid-air refuellers by the Indian Air Force.

The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is also currently developing a beyond-visual-range air to air Missile Astra. The DRDO Chief Dr V K Atre recently told PTI that the missile was still in technology demonstrator stage and no tests had been undertaken of the new missile.

Meanwhile, after undergoing six highly-successfull flight tests since mid 2001, the naval version of the 290 kms range Brahmos missile has been approved for installation on all surface warships of the Navy.

Defence Minister George Fernandes recently said that the Brahmos naval version had achieved all mission objectives and had been cleared for placement as a major weapon system on all surface warships.

Facilities for production of Brahmos have already been set up at Bharat Dynamics in Hyderabad and the first of the naval ships would be armed with the missiles within the next three months by joint teams of Russian and Indian experts, officials said.

The air-breathing Brahmos anti-ship missile is powered by a liquid Ramjet engine, has a maximum speed of Mach 2.8 and can carry a warhead of upto 300 kgs to a distance of 300 kms.

The DRDO, along with full-fledged trials of the Naval version of the missile, have quietly also undertaken some trials for the land based version of the missile, which is to be mounted on specially modified Tetra Chasis.

DRDO sources said that the land version of the missile could be ready for induction into the army by another 15 months after undertaking user trials.

The air force is also gearing for the missile with modifications, which is planned to be integrated with the SU-30mki. However, scientists said that this programme could take upto 30 months.

http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=204960

AFTER BRAHMOS MORE COLLABORATIONS?

An IDC Analysis with inputs by Sayan Majumdar

New Delhi, 12 April 2004

The BrahMos collaboration came about when the Russians realized they had rupees lying in India, which they may not be able to repatriate after 2005. The Indian Navy and DRDO identified the Yakhont missile as suitable for future missions and as an excellent tri service and under water missile with potential.

Hence instead of merely importing the missiles from NPO Mash, a joint stock company was formed with joint investment from India via DRDO and Russia via their funds in India. In this manner BrahMos Aerospace could import missiles, equipment and personnel from Russia and the Russians got their rupees out as payment in dollars and their investment in India remained intact.

This example needs to be emulated for future requirements as well, for example the fast firing 30mm AK-630M-MR-123-02 guns and AA/Air Defence Artillery Systems for the three services. The Ordnance Factory Board can very well follow the example of BrahMos Aerospace and even Larsen and Tubro, which is looking to make Amur Class submarines in India, can investigate a similar arrangement.

Sayan Majumdar reports that after successful joint-development of the BrahMos ASCM (anti-ship cruise missile) the Indo-Russian scientists and defence manufacturers had again teamed up to resurrect the formidable Russian Novator KS-172 ultra-long-range AAM (air-to-air missile) project. Novator design bureau unveiled its mock-up KS-172 AAM, a projected 6 metre long, 750 kg, 400 km range AAM in early 1993 at an air-show in Abu Dhabi. It also made a short and sudden appearance at the Moscow Air-Show in late 1993, in anticipation of a very high-level military delegation.

The mock-up of the KS-172 underwent refinement and in the Moscow Air-Show appeared in many ways similar to the Buk (SA-11 Gadfly) SAM (surface-to-air Missile). Russian officials later hinted that air-carriage tests of SAMs had been carried out using a Sukhoi-27 “Flanker”. They were speculated to be SA-11s by foreign media used for form-and-fit tests.

Designed to fulfill the BVR (beyond visual range) role for “outer-air battles”, an aircraft usually of Sukhoi-27/30/35/37 “Flanker/Super Flanker” family, equipped with KS-172 (also referred to as Article 172) would be able to engage ultra-high-value airborne platforms like AWACS (airborne warning and control system), IFR (in-flight refuelling) and LRMP (long range maritime patrol) platforms, without necessarily having first to deal with their fighter escorts. Development of powerful radar like the formidable NIIP N-011M “Bars” (Snow Leopard) for the Sukhoi-30MKI “Super Flanker” of the IAF, would provide the necessary guidance to the ultra-long-range AAM. The Bars radar is capable of detection of airborne platforms with “generous” RCS (radar cross section) at ranges in excess of 300 km.

It is possible that an optimum combination of command, inertial and active-radar guidance would be used in the various phases of flight. Whereas IFF (identification friend or foe) remains a problem because of incorrect and absent returns and “spoofing”, friendly AWACS platforms like Phalcon may be deployed for reconfirmation of enemy airborne targets at extended ranges. In the long term, development of Electro-optical seeker technology coupled with on-board threat database will let the KS-172 missiles themselves determine the legitimacy of a target.

Thus IAF Sukhoi-30MKI armed with KS-172 could be launched in co-ordination with other surface-strike missions and split at an appropriate time to head for the enemy AWACS. They could penetrate from above the scan zone of the AWACS, destroy or threaten it and force a retreat in the patrol pattern. Alternatively, Sukhoi-30MKIs could be guided by Phalcon AWACS platforms to enter hostile airspace at the altitude of the enemy AWACS at high-supersonic speeds and shoot it down.

The timing of such missions is critical and therefore should be launched when the enemy AWACS was about to take up a patrol. The objective would be to attain AWACS asymmetry in our favour as soon as possible and then decimate the enemy Air Force mercilessly.

For anti-AWACS missions two other missile systems are worth mentioning and Indo-Russian cooperation should also extend in these spheres. First is the hybrid rocket-ramjet propelled Vympel R-77M, a 3.6m long development of the R-77RVV-AE (AA-12 Adder) AAM with a projected range of 160 to 200 km with similar optimum combination of command, inertial and active-radar guidance. Second is an AAM version of Zvezhda Kh-37 (AS-17 Krypton) ARM (anti-radiation missile) with 100 km range, which employs passive homing against AWACS targets. This system is rumoured to be present in the Russian Air Force inventory.

KS-172 may also be developed into an ASAT (anti-satellite) weapon. The Sukhoi-30 in this case serves as the launch platform at high altitude while missile guidance is provided from ground stations.

-INDIA DEFENCE CONSULTANTS

So what are the specifications for the R-37?

Another shot of the R-37.

And the R-77M.

Is it feasible to design a two stage AAM? for example lets say that the first stage could be a booster with sensors for midcourse guidance, and a Python-4 as the second stage.

Don’t see why not. The KS-172 is a two stage weapon with it’s booster attached.

Is it feasible to design a two stage AAM? for example lets say that the first stage could be a booster with sensors for midcourse guidance, and a Python-4 as the second stage.

What are the specifications of K-37M missile that beat the Ks-172 and are there any pictures?

Probably more to do with the fact that it is rather more further developed as a weapon system and with up to 6 being carried on the belly of a Mig-31 as opposed to the KS-172 being carried on wing pylons I can understand the preference for the more mature system.

Here is the best picture I have seen of the R-37…

So,the Russians will definutely not introtuce Ks-172 in their Air Force?

What are the specifications of K-37M missile that beat the Ks-172 and are there any pictures?

about the yakhont, yes i’ve just found out that it can be fired from the Mig-29 (x2), 3 from the Su-27 (and derivatives) and 8 from the Tu-142.
its an awesome weapon it seems.
also the Ks-172 only speaks from Sukhoi platform, but i wander if the Mig-29 could also with the proper upgrade, do the same.
Camaro.

It is surprising to see that the Novator weapon is now being offered for export.

It seems to be a bit of a pattern with Russian weapon systems where there are competing products that the loser is free to export their wares overseas. Makes sense to me as a lot of very scarce money is invested in the creation of these weapon systems and just because the Russians don’t want or need that system there is no reason why someone else might not want it… if it meets their needs.
(Note Mi-28 was revealed well before the Ka-50 because at the time the Ka-50 had won the competition, so the Mi-28 became available for export).

An article by Mr. Piotr Butowski.

( JANE’S MISSILES AND ROCKETS – MARCH 01, 2004)

JANE’S MISSILES AND ROCKETS – MARCH 01, 2004

Novator offers a redesigned KS-172S-1 long-range AAM
Piotr Butowski

Sukhoi has displayed a model of the Su-35 multirole fighter carrying under its wings two KS-172S-1 ultra-long range air-to-air missiles, writes Piotr Butowski. The weapon is an export variant of a missile originally offered to the Russian Air Force by the Novator Company of Yekaterinburg.

Work on the KS-172 air-to-air missile began in 1991. Alternative designations ‘Izdeliye 172 (K-172)’ and the anglicised ‘AAM-L’ have also been reported. The basis of the new weapon was the second stage of the 3M83 surface-to-air missile used by the S-300V (SA-12 Gladiator) anti-aircraft system.

A full-scale mock-up of the KS-172 was shown in front of Su-27 fighter at Zhukovsky in August 1993. but over the next 10 years there was no further news of the project. The model shown late last year has a different shape to that of the mock-up shown in 1993. Both versions have a two-stage propulsion system, but in the current KS-172S-1 design the length of the tandem-mounted booster has been increased while its diameter has been reduced. The length of the missile without booster has been reduced so that the overall length of the complete round is unchanged.

According to Novator, the KS-172S-1 is 6.0m long and weighs 700kg, dimensions which are unchanged from those announced in 1993. Its diameter has been reported as 40cm.

In the 1993 design, the nose section of the missile was of smaller diameter than the rest of the fuselage, a configuration which proves additional internal volume for the rocket motor. In the current design, the fuselage is of constant diameter, and the tail-mounted cruciform control fins are of shorter span and longer chord.

The missile is guided to the target by a multi-mode guidance system typical for beyond-visual range missiles. In the first phase of flight, guidance is by inertial navigation with command updates in the mid-course phase. An active-radar seeker is used for terminal guidance. According to earlier reports, the missile carries a directional high-explosive (HE) fragmentation warhead, probably weighing about 50kg, and initiated by a radar proximity fuze.

Maximum range of the KS-172S-1 export variant is 300km; the version proposed for Russian air forces is believed to have a range of 400km. The missile will be used against air targets flying at altitudes from 3m to 30km with speeds up to 4,000km/h and manoeuvring at up to 12g. Typical targets could include all types of aircraft (including AWACS or J-STARS platforms, tankers, reconnaissance and electronic-warfare aircraft), cruise missiles, as well as long and medium-range anti-aircraft missiles which pose a threat to the KS-172-armed fighter.

Several test launches of the KS-172 have been made, but these rounds were not fitted with a guidance system. The firing of rounds fitted only with an autopilot and programmed to fly pre-planned manoeuvres is common in the early stages of air-to-air missile programmes.

The Russian air force did not adopt the KS-172, but opted to back a competing K-37M missile offered by Vympel. It is surprising to see that the Novator weapon is now being offered for export.

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This is from Force magazine – an Indian defence publication

Volume 1 No 6 April 2004 , Page 55 .

Excerpts from the Article:

India Starts Defence Exports : Joint Ventures Now yielding rich Dividends

KS -172

– Joint Venture between India’s DRDO and Russias NPO Novator.

SpeciFications :

– It is an ultra Long Range AAM with a Development Range of 400KMs To Target AEW/AWAC Type High Value Aircrafts.

– Sole Carrier in the Indian AF will be the Su-30MKI

Features ( Dimensions) :

– 1.4 Meter long Rocket Booster

– Weight 748Kgs

– Core Diameter 0.40 Meter , Total Lenght 6.01 Meters , Span .61 Meters

– Launched by a Solid-propellant Tandem Rocket Booster

– The KS 172 will attack its Targets with an adaptive high explosive ( HE) fragmentation warhead.

Guidance

– Secure Data-Linked Based inertial Navigation System for MidCourse Guidance ( This would probably be done by AWACS or the 2-3 MKIs Working in Tandem with their Mini AWACS Capability)

– Active Radar Homing for its Terminal Phase.

-The missile will be used against air targets flying at altitudes from 3m to 30km with speeds up to 4,000km/h and manoeuvring at up to 12g.

INDO-RUSSO CO-OPERATION

DRDO and NPO will jointly Develop:

– An Active Homing Radar Seeker with a Wide Lock-On Range Which is able to recieve targeting data from the launch AC.

– Design a combined Gas/AeroDynamic Control system with 3d TVC . Provides High Manoeuvrability irrespective of launch Conditions and allows for missle launch with AC in super Manoeuvrability flight mode.

– Create and Adaptive Rapid Reaction Autopilot Which Optimises with Missile Stabilization and control Parameters within the firing range.

– Development of Special Interaction Logic btween the KS-172 Explosive Fuse and Guidance system Which ( In addition to structural and config features) gurantees absolute immunity of the Warhead detonation system to Jamming

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For more information go to:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml

JANE’S MISSILES AND ROCKETS – MAY 01, 2004

————————————————————————–

India and Russia negotiate co-operation on KS-172 AAM
David C Isby

Russia and India are currently negotiating a long-range air-to-air missile (AAM) project as a follow-on to the joint Brahmos supersonic anti-ship cruise missile programme, writes David C Isby. The Novator Design Bureau in Yekaterinburg is developing a long-range missile designated the KS-172 or R-172 (see JMR March 2004, p1). The proposed negotiations would make available Indian investment and technical assistance.

Novator’s proposed partner, India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), is currently working on its own beyond-visual-range AAM, the Astra. A variant of the KS-172 could be used to arm India’s Su-35 fighter force for use against high-value standoff targets such as radar surveillance aircraft and flight-refuelling tankers.

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For more information go to:
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thanks GDL.
agreed is the yakhont.
now why is it being shown with the SMT plenums?, does it mean that it can also be fired from the SMT? 😮
Camaro.

thanks again brother, now to make things clearer…
on the next pic…is the KS-172 that “humongus thing” (sorry ’bout my spelling 😀 ) on the left of the R-77? (left of the pic)
and by the way, seems that can be also fired from the SMT?
thanks again
Camaro

That huge missile is the Yakhont anti-ship cruise missile.

as usual you’ve got it aerospaceman
about that big thingy on the left, could it also be the yakhont?, i never knew that the SMT could fire either one of those monster things 😮
Camaro.

No that looks like Brahmos to me.

This is KS-172.

Just do a search, you should be able to find several threads with plenty of pictures.

No, that’s not the novator.