Airbus more important than airlines?

Qatar Airways chief condemns critics of Arab expansion

Qatar Airways chief Akbar Al Baker has lashed critics of Middle Eastern carriers’ use of export finance, and their desire for expansion.

In comments voiced during the Arab Air Carriers Organization conference in
Cairo, Al Baker noted that the region’s airlines were being “heavily criticised” for using cheaper finance to expand. But he retorts that carrier chiefs behind such attacks “do not understand the basic principles” of financing to airlines.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/10/20/348729/qatar-airways-chief-condemns-critics-of-arab-expansion.html

They are still posting 20% growth though so obviously something is being done right.

EK must be getting their money from somewhere if they can afford all these shiny new planes (which, to be fair, they must be getting for around half price anyway). Or perhaps it is just the people in the fancy seats up the front subsidising the ocassional poor loads down the back…

Difficult to say but an ex-colleague of mine recently did ZRH-DXB on EK and said that the loads were barely 30-40%. Although EK does extremely well on the sub-continental routes I am not too sure on what their loads on new routes such as MAD, PRG are…just for perspective it would be interesting to know.

There’s a degree of feeling here that EK are taking traffic from the longer-established carriers due to being able to offer lower, subsidised, fares. How much Europe – Asia/Australasia traffic is EK winning from those carriers? How many people are now hubbing through Dubai?
Has the UAE/Dubai become the new Blackpool/Rimini/Palma? Has the UAE now developed sufficiently to become a destination in its own right and EK needs the capacity to serve the new tourist trail?

How far will the governments go in actually enforcing protectionism? Because if they do it in one industry, it has a good chance it would go viral into other industries as well that may be struggling?

This may none be very good news for the likes of EK and QR. Specifically EK which is flooding the market with capacity that may not be necessarily existent. Given they are doing well with a reported 20% growth but sustainability is the answer, such a shout from European carriers was expected.

In an ideal world there should be no special treatments given to LH, AF etc. to counter EK, QR. But then again some of the middle eastern carriers themselves are not playing a very fair game.

On a personal note i never get what the fuss is with EK other than extremely competitive fairs. As soon as you get into an EK lounge/aircraft/office its like you have suddenly entered LL Cool J’s walk-in wardrobe.

The big European airlines are becoming increasing vocal:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-10-10/air-france-ceo-gourgeon-calls-for-eu-curbs-on-expansion-by-gulf-carriers.html

Pity the poor airline executives, beset by labor troubles (Vereinigung Cockpit and BA Flight Attendants for example) on the one hand and their own government funding predatory competitors on the other.

Seems pretty real to me.

Personally I would prefer the European governments to finance development and sales of our manufactured products even if it means our traditional flag carriers are hard done by. Manufacturing will always have more importance than service industry to me and I work in the aerospace service industry.

Could not have put it better myself. Somewhere somebody is always subsidising something and the aviation industry is no exception, just ask Ryanairs O’Leary

Really not hard to connect the dots…..

Ah. A conspiracy theory.

Excellent. 😀

In this flagging economy R&D and Manufacturing may be the EU’s only saviours

Personally I would prefer the European governments to finance development and sales of our manufactured products even if it means our traditional flag carriers are hard done by. Manufacturing will always have more importance than service industry to me and I work in the aerospace service industry.

In this flagging economy R&D and Manufacturing may be the EU’s only saviours
More power to the elbow of R&D and manufacturing even if it means government subsidies or grants.
Emirates and other major airlines are ‘big boys’ and can take care of themselves.

Personally I would prefer the European governments to finance development and sales of our manufactured products even if it means our traditional flag carriers are hard done by. Manufacturing will always have more importance than service industry to me and I work in the aerospace service industry.

A question rather than a comment.

How do you get from “Western governments subsidizing foreign airlines in their purchases of Western aircraft” to “Airbus more important than airlines?” :confused:

Really not hard to connect the dots……the topic is being discussed very publicly in a lot of different places. But I will use the same source I used in post 1, Aboulafia, my bold:

“Emirates is an excellent airline that has won that traffic by offering great service at a good price (with some help from its home base). Europe would only hurt its consumers if it kept Emirates out of its air travel markets, and protectionism is a bad idea. But the A380 represents a publically funded way to help Emirates beat up on those European airlines. Europe is subsidizing the aeronautical rope that Emirates is using to hang European airlines in four ways:

1. Export Credit Finance. Many A380s exported to the Mideast enjoy European government export credit finance, which is particularly important as Dubai’s financial uncertainties affect capital availability. ECA finance, of course, is not available for the European carriers whose traffic is Emirate’s favorite lunch.

2. Landing Rights. According to many press reports, the latest round of A380 orders was announced in Berlin to curry favor with German authorities. The goal is to gain landing rights for Emirates at Lufthansa’s expense.

3. A380 Development Funding. The A380 itself would have been impossible without billions in taxpayer euros that will never, ever be paid back.

4. A350XWB Development Funding. Airbus might not need public cash for this new plane if it weren’t losing tens of millions on each A380 it delivers. Airbus now says that A380 production won’t turn cash-positive until at least 2015. Until then, losses on each plane delivered to Emirates will effectively be made good by A350XWB launch aid.”

This quote was extracted from here:
http://www.richardaboulafia.com/shownote.asp?id=318

Whats more troubling: that so many Europeans apparently don’t care or don’t know how their airlines are being asked to compete “with one hand tied behind their back” in order to benefit the golden child: Airbus Industrie?

A question rather than a comment.

How do you get from “Western governments subsidizing foreign airlines in their purchases of Western aircraft” to “Airbus more important than airlines?” :confused: