Ryanair Ditch Manchester Routes

Fairly sure, yes. From what I understand the loads on the Aer Arran flights were reasonable, or at the very least enough for them to continue operating. They pulled out shortly after Ryanair started. It seems fairly obvious why!

Paul

The Aer Arann routes varied massively, sometimes they could be full, but quite often the flights were attracting no more than single figures, especially the Galway. Undoubtedly though, The FR Shannon put an end to both the ORK and GWY flights. The loads on the Shannon were apalling though, very rarely attracting more than 50 on a 189 seater. Will be very interesting to see how the Knock does when it starts.

aircraft enthusiasts wishing airlines to go bust?……..God help us all!

That’s similar to the point I made recently about people seeming to take pleasure in the delays the A380/787 have had. It makes no sense for anyone interested in aviation to think like that but anyway… That’s a different point for another thread. It makes no sense to me for any aviation enthusiast to wish hard times on an airline unless, again, it will do some good in the bigger picture. Who knows? Maybe someone will come in to fill the void left by Ryanair. I hope so!

Are you really sure the Aer Arann/RYR situation was not just a case of both trying and failing?Plenty of airlines pull routes.

Fairly sure, yes. From what I understand the loads on the Aer Arran flights were reasonable, or at the very least enough for them to continue operating. They pulled out shortly after Ryanair started. It seems fairly obvious why!

Paul

Paul

We haven’t always agreed but we do on this one.If everyone had posted a measured response like this to the news,I’d never have posted.
On a separate note I also share your “recent” change of heart re RYR particularly over the online check in fee and what you may not know (I’ve not seen any press coverage) is they’ve now started measuring onboard baggage at the gate.It’s allowed thro x-ray which means it’s now security cleared so they have someone with a book of e30 tickets charging you to put it in the hold.Monstrous and clearly a pure revenue scam!!Also the bag drop idea is a disaster……took my brother 50 mins at BRS yesterday,nearly missing flight.
But,I still say……aircraft enthusiasts wishing airlines to go bust?……..God help us all!
Are you really sure the Aer Arann/RYR situation was not just a case of both trying and failing?Plenty of airlines pull routes…EZY and LH to name two at Bristol without always giving them a fair time IMHO.

Barry

I know you’re all passionate about the business and probably some are involved in it….that’s what worries me! Is no-one interested in the planes?

I don’t really think it’s a case of people not being interested in planes as such. I don’t work in the aviation industry; I work in music which was my hobby before I started working in it. It’s still my hobby, but because it’s also my job I think in slightly different ways to someone who is involved in it purely for pleasure. For example if I go to a jam session I’m usually very selective in who I play with, and I generally only play with people I know are very good. That isn’t me being a snob, it’s me thinking I sometimes get paid to play with people I don’t particularly enjoy playing with, so when I’m doing it purely for fun I want it to be just that. Others might play with anyone regardless of their ability or outlook, but I’m more selective because I think slightly differently. (Maybe it is a little snobbish, but an element of that does undeniably come when you work in music to any kind of serious level).

I’m absolutely certain aviation is no different, and the vast majority of people I know working in it are all certainly still very much interested in planes. For me, I can see the good and bad points of, say, Ryanair creating a base at my local LBA whereas someone else working in the industry may hate it and not see the positives I see at all; possibly because they have a more in depth and better understanding of it than I do as a simple aviation photographer (don’t quote and emphasise the ‘simple’, Spalds. Ah ha… Simple Spalds!) As Andy will no doubt know, I’ve been a long time supporter of Ryanair until recent times and I’m very quickly starting to come round to his way of thinking.

I’m a regular at MAN (I’m back there tomorrow in fact) and I have quite a deep rooted love of the place, so the loss of XL, Zoom, Flyjet and others has been a great shame to see. Ryanair pulling out is certainly a shame in terms of losing traffic, but I fully believe it’s for the best in this case and the airports’ decision to stand up to Ryanair was a very, very good one. They’re a company with overheads to cover, after all, and while we as aviation enthusiasts would all love to see as many planes in the sky and in airports as possible, we have to accept thay Ryanairs tactics do nothing whatsoever for the aviation industry as a whole. As an example, Ryanair moved in on the two routes Aer Arran ran from LBA and operated at a loss so Aer Arran pulled out. Ryanair then also pulled the routes, so we lost not only two routes but also an operator. As good as I thought Ryanair starting those routes was at the time, I now wish LBIA had told O’Leary to get stuffed because they did more harm to our little airport than good. More planes turned into none, which is extremely disappointing and it’s points like this that so many ‘spotters’ can’t see. They just want to see more planes but can’t quite see the bigger picture which can be far more damaging than they realise.

So again, well done Manchester for not bowing down to O’Learys demands. On the plus side, my little airport gets another 9-odd flights a day. I just hope we don’t see a repeat of previous new RYR routes from LBA, although I’m not sure we will in this case.

Paul

Andy

I couldn’t fault a word strangely,if it weren’t in this forum.The snag is (as I’ve said in a PM to another contibutor) that AW is an enthusiast’s magazine and,yes,I’m a 63 year old avid photographer though not a spotter so patently my interest is in seeing as much variety as possible and,to some extent,getting to the material as cheaply as possible.That’s what several do with their motor insurance and that shopping around probably cost me my job with a VERY major player a decade ago.However I don’t use every opportunity to dish the dirt on Direct Line,or whoever, on an unconnected forum.
I know you’re all passionate about the business and probably some are involved in it….that’s what worries me! Is no-one interested in the planes?
I actually agree with much of the sentiment re RYR v MAN Airport but cannot believe the stream of vitriol that followed speculating on whether it was the end of the road for RYR or what campaign of words MOL would launch against the airport.
Given that the airport has lost more routes recently than most UK airports and (without much press coverage) limited the opening hours of it’s much vaunted second runway,I’d have thought they could ill afford this latest loss.
However,I’d admire them for not being intimidated by RYR though I suspect being host to other lo-cos probably meant they had to do what they did.
I only ever respond when there’s this “war” on RYR and would probably agreed if others had simply made similar comments.

Barry:)

I think, black kettle, that the issue is that we ARE passionate about the business, and are concerned about what Ryanair is doing to it…

I guess, if you’re a plane-spotter, Scumbag O’Riley’s airline has done some good in bringing hundreds more 737s to this country to “spot”. And, if you’re a champion of cheaper fares over-riding all else, then Ryanair have brought cheaper fares to the masses. Just as you claim (arguable in some cases IMHO) that the “legacy” cartel destroyed the new comers, so you must understand that Ryanair’s objectives are similar. Just look at the wishfull thinking painted on to the side of some of his 737s to realise he and Ryanair are NO champion of a totally level playing field either – Ryanair are simply Ryanair champions. Period.

The issue many have is – at what cost Ryanair? Just as Tesco has been accused of damaging its suppliers (particularly the UK farming industry) in its constant driving down costs and its exploitation of cheap labour (from the far east), so Ryanair is doing much the same by exerting unreasonable cost pressure on its suppliers like airports and handling agents. But I say again, I am no socialist that expects everyone to be paid a certain amount, nor am I a supporter of corporations exploiting their position to make excessive profits, but Ryanair is damaging the supply chain by putting excessive and unreasonable downward pressure on other’s costs (and in leveraging unjustifiably high charges for add-ons itself for that matter), and when things go wrong it is never Ryanair’s faul – it is always either their suppliers or their customers that suffer.

Manchester airport needs to make an honest buck for providing terminals, roads, runways, taxiways, fences, security, lighting and heating, etc, etc. that Ryanair and its customers rely on. So well done MAG for standing their ground and insisting that they can’t provide a service at an unreasonably low price – the price Ryanair wanted probably both not allowing MAG to make MAG any money and also putting MAG into a difficult situation with their other tennant airlines. Taking a different sort of cost, have you ever heard Ryanair being vocal about things like – for example – excessive Eurocontrol charges? No, not often. See, Ryanair can moan about and threaten to throw its toys out of its pram if it doesn’t get its way on airport charges, but things like Eurocontrol charges are a bit more fixed and it knows it isn’t going to make any movement or get much sympathy on those

So I’ll say it again – if £3 is what it is necessary to charge to put a passenger through Manchester airport whilst making a reasonable margin on their operations, then I believe MAG has every right to insist on that price and no passenger really has a right to expect to pay less. Just as I believe Tesco should not exert such downward pressure on [for example] the production of milk that farmers find it impossible to make a living producing milk – milk that cheap is just not a price worth paying – so I believe Ryanair should not be able to do the same with airports and handling agents, etc. And if that means Ryanair’s air fares have to go up, or that Ryanair cannot itself make money on its Manchester operations, then it is not Manchester airport that is wrong but Ryanair’s business model that is wrong.

Andy

Barry, you don’t need to stress to me that what you say is all in good humour. You’re a great debater and I really like that. At the end of the day you and I are never going to agree, especially on the topic of MOL and thats fine 🙂 I don’t like the guy or the way he does business and that is unlikely to change anytime soon, I’ve seen that set up at close quarters and from a staff perspective and ideed many a passengers point of view its not good Only the other day I heard a statement from him on Radio 4 with his opinion on ABTA, he referred to them in a very unprofessional and child like manner, it may bring him publicity but in the eyes of many aviation people and the public at large he debases his own standing and that of his “airline” but personally I have no problem with him doing that…..BTW I can live with the IL18 or 62…I really don’t mind…..in good humour “Long live those legacy carriers 😉

Interfug IL62m (IL18 was better)

Everything you say is true essentially…..the problem is I know only too well how all these airlines ended because that side of it is more of a fascination almost than the planes.Clearly some were badly run but without exception they all suffered from protectionism to the flag carriers and were left picking up the ad hoc charter “crumbs”.
What I can’t come to terms with is how,on an aviation enthusiast’s site for God’s sake,people seem so keen to knock the very entrepreneurial talents you admire from the “old days”.I’m no keener on MOL’s scams than anyone else at times,but I rather like the little outfit (‘cos that’s what RYR was at the outset) taking on the establishment and winning in any business.
I can understand why industry insiders would be hostile like small shops are to supermarkets but what the hell has MOL or any lo-co operator done to aircraft enthusiasts or as importantly what have BA and their EEC equivalents done FOR enthusiasts or regional airports?

Thats the nub of the niggle and I don’t need to stress all in good humour as far as I am concerned,

Barry

Barry, I am glad you are hostile to my prefered bunch of airlines….it would be a very boring forum if guys like you were not 😉 Not all non state airlines were failures, British Caledonian, Dan Air, Autair (later Court), British United, Derby (later BMI) Air Anglia (later Air UK) etc. Some, but not all of those you list failed because of bad management and bad financial decision making. I have always had a soft spot for Channel Airways, based as it was in the area I have lived in all my life, as was Lloyd International but by the end of its life Channel was an economic basket case illustrated best by the poor fleet decisions they made and less than secure contracts with the tour operator sector. Hunting Clan I believe went on to become part of BUA which in turn of course moved in with BCAL who in turn was part of the conspiracy to crush Freddie Laker, who whilst being a hero and I admired him, was no Saint. He made errors as we all do. Whilst there were non state casualties over the decades not all of the blame could be laid at the doors of BOAC and BEA, did not Cunard have something to do with the failure of British Eagle? along with the loss of substantial numbers of MoD contracts? I fully stand to be corrected on this. Having relatives employed by BOAC, Channel Airways, De Havilland HS Hatfield and the Handley Page Aircraft Company I have a great interest in the era as both my library and display model collection show. I wish I had been there but being born in ’58 I missed some!

Hi all you guys.I feel there is a fundamental misunderstanding here.I am not a RYR cheer leader though I suspect MOL is not personally the sleazy character he pretends…indeed I believe he has a first class economics degree.I also know £12 to Hahn is not in itself sustainable but it is if others who perhaps book nearer the date pay £150.It’s price management and Southwest have made it work for years in the US.
The point is I AM hostile to the airlines you all seem to prefer and,with respect,question how many are old enough to REALLY know the scale of the number of UK airlines that tried to compete with them against a brick wall of government protection similar to that which still exists for Iberia,Alitalia etc.
British Eagle
Channel Airways
Hunting Clan
Laker…………to name some…….get the history books that cover the 1950s 60s and 70s and then tell me RYR is the first to be cut throat….or ask Sir Michael Bishop what he thinks of the behaviour of European “flag” carriers in the past.
I think MOL is simply being seen as a “monster” and I bet he takes the view any publicity is better than none

Barry

Well put Andy ref post 35. I know very well that the legacies were not perfect especially in the era just prior to the so called LoCos arrival. Even the much vaunted admirer of Freddie Laker, Mr Branson and his Virgin Atlantic were not adverse to collusion with BA on price fixing, but the legacies were not all bad. BTW I recently made a trip to Malaga and met up with friends out there, much to their disgust I had paid a lot less than they had on Ryanair and I was using Iberia, and no I was not using staff travel! I think it wound them up even more that I had enjoyed a proper breakfast and a free newspaper en route!….nasty old full service carriers. 😉

Skymonster………….

A very reasoned, fair and well put argument……..Nothing is for nothing in this world, either financially or environmentally. It is also worth remembering the saying………”what goes around, comes around”. The day will come when Ryanair will not have it all their own way.

I really do not understand how any company (be it airline or any other business) can succeed if it is percieved to have a policy of regarding it’s customers as totally unimportant (could express it more graphically!!), except at the point where they hand over their credit card information. In my view a parallel situation applies to politicians: we the electors are only important every four years or so when they require our votes.

Planemike…………..

I generally try to not to comment on the usual ‘has FR been good for UK & I aviation or not’ debate but for once I have to say fantastic post Andy. Agree with EVERY word.

1L.

Very good words from Interflug62M in posts 30 and 32 – hitting the proverbial nails on the head.

Indeed I flew to Hahn from the very MAN in the news last week…..£12 rtn all in… Seems good to me and I leave it to the commercial outfits called airports to look after themselves.Can’t remember them doing me any favours!

It is quite simple really – aside from selected “loss leaders” (in much the same way as supermarkets sometimes sell selected products below cost), £12 return to Hahn is just not sustainable. I don’t mean sustainable to Ryanair – I care not how they chose to make their money – but not sustainable overall, full stop.

“Commercial outfits called airports” put a roof on the checkin halls, provide car parks and roads, runways and taxiways, piers, fire and other emergency services, security equipment and staff, etc… All are infrastructure needed to operate passenger flights, and the list goes on and on. Other “commercial outfits” provide air traffic control services, etc. Then there’s the direct operating costs of any flight to consider, like fuel. And leave aside for one moment the very valid issues of climate impact (and I’m only leaving that aside as, for now, there isn’t a viable ring-fenced offset for the damage INCREASING aviation will do).

Simply put, you cannot move someone to Hahn and back for £12. Yes, as I said above, there can be occasional loss leaders, but for these sorts of activities to be sustainable to Ryanair, Ryanair has to gouge its own suppliers – oh, and treat its customers badly when things go wrong because there’s no wriggle room to treat customers any better. Clearly, some of the recent problems that have beset Ryanair, including the Stadsted baggage debacle, are down to their forcing down costs and penny pinching – forcing down handling charges means lower staff wages, means less committed staff, means more sickness, means lack of service. Of course, when these things do happen, its NEVER Ryanair’s fault – NOT! So Ryanairs’ operation is effectively subsidised by airports, ground handlers and the like. And when the airports kick back in the name of making a fair buck for themselves – to provide the infrastructure and services upon which Ryanair depends – then Ryanair throws its toys out of the pram (stroller!).

The low-fare model has done some good – yes, there were artificially inflated prices and collusion in the old “legacy” system, and the low-fare sector has done much to end this. However, there are compassionate low-fares, and ruthless low-fares. Having look at many, a Southwest-style model is so much more acceptable than Ryanair’s approach. Fares HAVE to go up in the future in order for the industry to operate on a reasonable basis, where each part of the supply chain makes a fair (not over-inflated, and not loss-making) return for the service they provide – and in future, where environmental impacts of aviation growth are also paid for.

No one has a right to fly for free (or next to nothing) at someone else’s expense, and when the travelling public get used to paying a fair price for a fair service – and that probably means round trip fares to Germany being closer to three figures and one – then some semblance of normality will return. It WILL happen, sooner or later.

If I was putting my minimal life savings on EI or RYR to survive and prosper,it wouldn’t be on EI !!

EI as a brand may not survive, and part of that will be down to Ryanair and its predatory policies. I will bet two other things – (1) if EI go, Ryanair will get more expensive in Dublin, and (2) Ryanair may well out-survive Aer Lingus, but it will have to change over time too.

Andy

Sorry black kettle, I disagree with your interpratation of my post. However this is an open forum and although I disagree with your reply, as the saying goes, I would defend to the death your right to express it. Passengers screwed? possibly although personally I have never felt screwed by a legacy carrier. There will always be bad apples in the barrel, ie: RYR. In my post ref the visionaries I meant those that founded the likes of Pan Am, British Airways ( the original, not the entity from the 80s) Eastern, TWA, Air France, KLM, Lufthansa etc etc, as opposed to those people that followed them. These people and their achievements deserve more respect and acknowledgement than that shown by MOL and some others, and if you honestly think that the fare structures employed by the so called “LoCo” operators is not fixing by another name then we certainly do look at this topic very differently. I can’t possibly comment on your choice of newspapers 😉

Ah………so the legacy carriers didn’t spend half a century conspiring with their governments and each other to screw the punter then and anyone who tried to compete with them like Freddie Laker?….. and the farce of “affinity” flights where people got thrown off by officious DOT people for not being members of the Scunthorpe Mouth Organ Guild or suchlike (about the only way to legally qualify for a charter to the US) never happened,nor did BA and VS price fixing?
I’m truly heartened to find this and must have read all the wrong papers for 50 years!
Vive le prestige carrier!!

Thanks Barry for the kind words ref the IF 62, as you rightly say…a proper plane. Sorry to hear of the job loss. With ref to RYR and its ilk I have never agreed with the business model and never will, founded as it is on not paying the real costs of what they do. It irritates me no end to hear that dreadful O’Leary character villifying the Legacy carriers for providing a superior and more passenger friendly service than him and his “airline” Had it not been for the Legacy airlines and the visionaries that founded and ran them, taking the risks, providing the systems routes and infrastructure, it would not be possible for the so called LoCos to operate as they do.

Interflug IL62m…..great ID by the way…….a proper plane

I can understand if you’re in the business RYR must seem like Direct Line did to me when I lost a job with a “legacy” Insurer after 35 years but it’s hard nosed business driven by a price fanatical market.If people didn’t hanker after the silly fares there’d be no RYR etc.
What I’ve never understood is,if one is just a true enthusiast perhaps not involved in the business,why the downer on the lo-cos?….surely it all enhances our scene photographically and in terms of getting to places to pursue our hobby.
Indeed I flew to Hahn from the very MAN in the news last week…..£12 rtn all in,hired a car and did a pile of air and rail museums.Seems good to me and I leave it to the commercial outfits called airports to look after themselves.Can’t remember them doing me any favours!
If I was putting my minimal life savings on EI or RYR to survive and prosper,it wouldn’t be on EI !!

Barry

Methinks short memories or maybe too young in some cases.EI are now on the brink of collapse (see PPrune in last few days) and serving many of the budget airports abroad that the LO-COs get ridiculed for.Like BA,they’ve pulled in and out of numerous UK airports when it suited them (BRS/CWL/LPL about three times since 1960!!).How is this prestige?

Prestige from the point of view that EI unlike RYR does not expect to be handled for nothing, has to compete with the so called LoCos on a very uneven playing field as do most of the legacy operators and EI is at least a half decent name to have littering your apron.

Ryanair exists in a world of subsidies of one kind or another, ranging from cut price airliners and manufacturers support to cut price handling and ‘deals’ done with local authorities in various countries. Add to that the endless add on charges before you even get to plant your backside on the seat and you have a rough layout of the RYR business model. The patience of those providing the subsisies eventually runs out as does their money, resulting in the classic RYR strategy of “all the toys in the corner” when they don’t get their own way, usually resulting in withdrawal of service ie: Manchester. Some cases of this RYR behaviour have resulted in some provincial airports in different countries ending up with no service at all after RYR have driven the incumbent operator out of business or the airport by predatory pricing and other ‘practices’. I am neither too young or suffering from short memory but I am now over 20 yrs in the aviation field and I know a level playing field when I see one….and RYR has never played on one yet!

Methinks short memories or maybe too young in some cases.EI are now on the brink of collapse (see PPrune in last few days) and serving many of the budget airports abroad that the LO-COs get ridiculed for.Like BA,they’ve pulled in and out of numerous UK airports when it suited them (BRS/CWL/LPL about three times since 1960!!).How is this prestige?
I suspect the nitty gritty is MAN have too much opposition to doing a deal with FR from the likes of BMI Baby/Jet 2/MON/TUI and even EZ and had their hands tied.
There’s virtually no serious economic commentator who doesn’t have FR and EZ as on the list of survivors along with LH even if there were only four left in Europe,so hoping for their demise could equate to nobody to fly with!!