‘I’m Not Allowed To Land In Fog’
A pilot with more than 30 years experience has been forced to turn his plane around – because he was not qualified to land in fog.
Pilots need extra training to land in adverse weather conditions
Passengers on the 8.45am Flybe flight to Paris were just minutes away from landing at their destination when they were told they would have to go all the way back to Cardiff.
One passenger from Bristol missed a job interview in France because of the incident.
Cassandra Grant explained: “Twenty minutes outside Paris, the captain said, ‘Unfortunately I’m not qualified to land the plane in Paris.
“‘They are asking for a level two qualification and I only have a level five. We’ll have to fly back.'”
The whole thing beggars belief. If I had not been on the plane, I would not have believed it.
Flybe passenger Cassandra Grant
A spokeswoman for the airline said Flybe backed the pilot’s decision “100 per cent”.
He had recently switched from flying a Bombardier Q300 to a Bombardier Q400 and has not completed the “requisite low-visibility training,” she said.
The dense fog covering Charles de Gaulle airport had not been there when the flight took off, she added.
The plane was already three hours late due to bad weather in Wales.
The pilot’s situation is “quite unusual but probably not unheard of,” according to the Civil Aviation Authority.
After reading this on the way into work, it got me thinking that this must occur on a regular basis..??
Its totally understandable the reasons why due to the recent changes in aircraft, but surly the operator should not run the risk or ensure their pilots are fully trained/qualified for any event / change in weather???
Luckliy the route was only short…
Rick
By: Whiskey Delta - 19th December 2008 at 15:30
Approach currency is maintained in simulators. We have to fly 2 full Cat II’s every 6 months for captains and 12 months for FO’s. There isn’t any requirement to fly them in real life and know a few pilots that have been Cat II trained for 5 years and never done it in real life.
By: atr42 - 18th December 2008 at 21:58
Reminds me a bit of the time in 1995 when we were coming back to LGW early morning with our 737 200 series (Cat 2). LGW was below minimums so we diverted to LTN.
When were getting in to the crew bus our Cpt was accosted by some angry pax who demanded to know if the reason we diverted was because our aircraft was not up to the job. Bearing in mind we are talking a cheap charter job not top price scheduled. We explained there was nothing wrong with our bird, just life with the weather. Our boss didn’t mention that the BA 737 behind us was Cat 3 and got in at LGW!
People don’t understand that not every person/aircraft is Cat 3 capable all the time. Even some airports are Cat 2 only.
Quick question for Deano if you don’t mind. What are the requirements for practise auto lands on Cat 3 aircraft to keep it current? I’ve heard crews asking for this coming in on good days.
Thanks
By: Rickt - 18th December 2008 at 10:56
Hi Dean,
Some really good info above,
thanks
Rick
By: Deano - 18th December 2008 at 10:12
Rick
The said captain had just converted to the Q400, he could have 1,000 years experience, that’s irrelevant. The Dash 8 is certified for CAT II approaches, but the crew must be too, that includes the Captain and First Officer. When you complete the Type Rating you normally do the CAT II qualification, but doing it in the sim is not enough. Once you have done it in the sim you have to then complete a few approaches on the line to get signed off.
It is quite common for every airline to have a combination of aircraft/pilots who are not CAT II qualified.
Now when you do your planning before departure you can only go on what is presented to you at the time. So you check your destination weather and alternates. If the weather is in limits then fine, you go, so he went. Perfectly acceptable. On the way there the Pilot Not Flying would get the ATIS for Paris, Orly & maybe Lille, the weather in Paris had deteriorated to an extent that a CAT II approach was needed. Knowing they couldn’t do a CAT II they would have looked at Orly, Lille & Brussels, they would have realised that the weather was also out of limits here too. So sufficient fuel provided they decided to go back to Cardiff. Totally and utterly the correct decision.
Now on that particular evening, I was also operating to Paris from Exeter. Before we left the weather in Paris was CAT II, so we double checked we were both qualified and that the a/c was as well. Also if your destination is CAT II you need 2 alternates that are 1 stage of approach better than your destination, i.e CAT I, so we checked our alternates and we had 2 airfields that were. So we went.
What we did do in this instance was take enough fuel to round trip back to Exeter. The reason is that our alternates were close to CAT I limits, and with the small window of opportunity with a CATII approach we knew it could quite easily drop below CATII minima in Paris, this could happen at our alternates too. So rather than faff about in holding patterns, diverting to an airfield that you also won’t get in to it is better to just return to base. This was our plan should our alternates then drop out of limits.
Incidentally the Cardiff passengers were bussed to Exeter and we took them to Paris that evening. They were all superb and never gave the cabin crew grief. During our CATII approach we got the approach lights visual at 120ft agl, so this was right on the limits too.
but surly the operator should not run the risk or ensure their pilots are fully trained/qualified for any event / change in weather???
Ok then, we’re going back to Exeter, the weather goes down to CAT II minima, unfortunately there is no CAT II approach in Exeter. What then?
End of the day the weather can go out of limits anywhere at any time. It doesn’t matter what type of approach you are conducting, or whether the crew are CAT II, CAT III, it doesn’t matter. Unfortunately on this occasion the weather deteriorated sufficiently to stop the crew approaching, big deal, this happens all over the world. The crew did the right thing.
Dean
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December 18, 2008 at 9:30 am