Farnborough 2008 Orders!!

Ah No – The Northrop Grumman B2 was the first large A/c with a primary structure made in CFRP and it has a significantly higher CFRP mass fraction. Both its MTOW and wing span exceed A400M. Also, and this may surprise some, military A/C airworthiness & airframe safety assessments take no credit for the ejection seat.

I’ll have to take your word on the B2, I’m positive it had metal Spars, as I saw the machining centre used to mill them, at Northrop Grumman Dallas works. The CFRP mass fraction is bound to be greater on the Spirit, it has no body and the rest of the skin is carbon.
However, if it had carbon skins it must have had carbon spars….the expansion differences prevent mixing the two. Hmm, I need to look into that B2, have you got a reference for the construction details?
Airbus Mil. claim that A400 is the first large A/c with primary structure made of CFRP.

I know about the ejection seat, all that does is save the crew – fortunate enough to have it – when he hits the “Mummy!” handle. The airworthiness is to ensure the machine doesn’t fall out of the sky on our houses.

And, people say that carbon doesn’t burn, fires are no problem.
They are correct, carbon fibres will not burn at any sensible temperature. The resin that hold it together will be wet and runny at 220C. If an engine fire gets into the wing, Death (And his cat) will be on your shoulder.
(There is a LARGE titanium firewall betwixt the firezone and the plastic so prey it will never happen)

Old shape Eithad have order both Airbus and Boeing. An airline doesnt have to be commited to one manufactuer now or does it:confused:

No not ever or never.
But, as I said, to have two contestants on the same order sheet could be hedging.

What explains that there are no new orders for the 787??

Why would this need any explaination ? A few days isnt really a good Reference point to see model sales . So far the 787 has sold around 80 units in 08 , which is pretty solid and in line with 2006 numbers . 2007 saw a huge rush for the dreamliner probably due to rush for deilvery slots (Sweet spots) .

That the production lines are all booked for the next ten years?

I would guess that the production line is pretty much sold till 2015 or so , however boeing (And airbus) always has premium slots available for “well paying” customers 😉

Same for the 747-8, good news for Boeing for a second order, but then it is only for four units.

748 is a niche player , an excellent Freighter but in an uncertain industry with airlines bleeding i dont think many will order an aircraft that is a niche player and that doesnt have routing flexibility as aircrafts like the A330 , 777 , 787 and 350 do !!

The only Saving grace for the VLA’s would be ME carriers , just take their A380’s ordered out of the equation and you can see the difference !! I suspect them to order some 748F’s aswell as they expand into the cargo ops (like EK) .

Old shape Eithad have order both Airbus and Boeing. An airline doesnt have to be commited to one manufactuer now or does it:confused:

As for the machines: –
They are both in the 8,000nm+ and 260-300+ pax market. They are indeed up agin each other. The 787 has a few years up it’s sleeve on market penetration though. This will give Airbus the advantage of seeing what happens and changing (If they can) to suit.
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Well, in that case I am misinformed, I was under the impression they were not similar aircraft and were not set to replace the same aircrafts. That is at least what you get if you check on wikipedia (see the difference in terms of capacity).

The 787-8 is the base model of the 787 family with a length of 186 feet (57 m) and a wingspan of 197 feet (60 m) and a range of 7,650 to 8,200 nautical miles (14,200 to 15,200 km) depending on seating configuration. The 787-8 seats 210 passengers in a three class configuration.

The A350-900 is the first to enter service (EIS) in 2013 and seats 314 passengers in a 3-class cabin 9-abreast layout. The aeroplane will have a range of 8,100 nmi (15,000 km).

The A400M will be the first large A/c with primary structure made of CFRP. Small military A/c have had it for years now, but they have a back-up system…made by Martin Baker.

Ah No – The Northrop Grumman B2 was the first large A/c with a primary structure made in CFRP and it has a significantly higher CFRP mass fraction. Both its MTOW and wing span exceed A400M. Also, and this may surprise some, military A/C airworthiness & airframe safety assessments take no credit for the ejection seat.

As far as I know, they are firm orders, not options. And I find your comment at bit odd. The 787 and the 350 are not similar planes with similar capabilities competing for the same segment of the market (at least the basic versions that are the 787-300 and the 350-800). The 787-300 is geared to replace the 767 and 330-200, the 350-800 the 777-200. It would not make sense for Etihad to order both to edge their bets. Companies usually know what planes they need to replace and what planes they need to meet what needs.

A firm order can still have options.
As for the machines: –
They are both in the 8,000nm+ and 260-300+ pax market. They are indeed up agin each other. The 787 has a few years up it’s sleeve on market penetration though. This will give Airbus the advantage of seeing what happens and changing (If they can) to suit.
Both programmes are in slippage (The A350 weight promises (Therefore fuel economy) are not being seen on the CAD screen), Etihad will indeed be hedging their bets if they have any business acumen. All companies do so, especially on untried technology. These will be the 1st pax aeroplanes with primary structure made of CFRP. The A400M will be the first large A/c with primary structure made of CFRP. Small military A/c have had it for years now, but they have a back-up system…made by Martin Baker.

I suggest some of these are MoU’s (Memorandum of Understandings) rather than contractually signed-up orders.
Ethiad have ordered the Dreamliner and the A350 (Nightmareliner).
I bet they do not opt for both, they are hedging their bets.

As far as I know, they are firm orders, not options. And I find your comment at bit odd. The 787 and the 350 are not similar planes with similar capabilities competing for the same segment of the market (at least the basic versions that are the 787-300 and the 350-800). The 787-300 is geared to replace the 767 and 330-200, the 350-800 the 777-200. It would not make sense for Etihad to order both to edge their bets. Companies usually know what planes they need to replace and what planes they need to meet what needs.

I suggest some of these are MoU’s (Memorandum of Understandings) rather than contractually signed-up orders.
Ethiad have ordered the Dreamliner and the A350 (Nightmareliner).
I bet they do not opt for both, they are hedging their bets.

What explains that there are no new orders for the 787?? That the production lines are all booked for the next ten years?

I suppose that the good news for Airbus is that they at last record a new order for the A380, although with only 10 new orders, they are not about to cover the development costs. Same for the 747-8, good news for Boeing for a second order, but then it is only for four units.

A350 seems to attract quite a number of new order.

This years order books have been painted by the middle east. I am still a bit pessimistic about the growth in aviation over the next 10 years, oil prices won’t be going down and ticket prices will be going up, marginally or not.

I guess it will be a wait and watch situation, funnily all these jets are coming from black gold money.