Lufthansa close call at Hamburg.

Still, there’s no getting away from the fact that a freak gust of some 75-80mph more than they’d been getting would have been anticipated.

A microburst would have generated a Windshear warning in the airplane resulting in a goaround. I haven’t heard any reports that they had any such warning onboard.

To all those suggesting the pilot should have diverted to somewhere more suitable I have this to say. The majority of airports in Northern Europe have runways orientated in very similar directions owing to the prevailing winds. So basically any divertion would have been to an airport with runways no better aligned than Hamburg’s. Also (according to reports at the time) the wind was varying in strength and very gusty, apparently that was an extremely sudden gust way stronger than they’d been having. When it happens that suddenly the pilot did well to keep hold of it. That looked more like the effect of a micro burst than a normal gust.

I bet the passengers still complained about being late…

Bri :diablo:

FBW is a system that must be “managed” like any other system on an airplane. Those that expect that system to manage them are bound to find themselves in trouble.

I don’t know anything about Airbus logic so perhaps it could play a part in this incident. But my hunch is that the FBW did what it was told to do and the FO told it to strike the wing on the runway. (not intentionally of course)

A few months back there was a thread discussing the safety implications of a very low pass during a display of (IIRC) a Portuguese Airbus (TAP?).

A number of inexperienced posters praised the piloting skills on display, others among us expressed concern as to the risks taken. A number of misguided posters suggested that the display was safe due to the airbus having a FBW system which they believed would avoid all risk of the aircraft coming into contact with the ground by limiting bank angles etc. I, for one, tried to explain that no FBW is fully “idiot proof”, as it cannot possibly guarentee that no ground contact will happen – especially in cases where wind gusts are sudden and/or extreme.

I believe this recent incident with the LH airbus proves my/our point – the FBW may well have helped avoid a more serious accident as a result of the groundstrike, (by ensuring the aircraft operated at its limits of perfomance during the “recovery and fly away” phase immediately after impact) but it could not prevent the wingtip hitting the runway as a results of an uncontrollable external influence (i.e. wind gust).

I rest my case that FBW CANNOT ever be considered as totally “foolproof”.

Paul F

I’ve been wondering throughout this thread why no one questioned why the approach was even conducted? Especially at this airport, which has runways arranged in such a way that this shouldn’t happen (they’re not all parallel at Hamburg, as at CDG or ATL for example).

Far, far from getting medal for his “heroics,” I’ll bet this Captain’s Chief Pilot (or whatever LH calls management pilots) was livid and has looked into the incident very thoroughly. An airline the quality of LH will not tolerate such demonstration of poor judgement by a Captain for long. Where was the FO? Was he just a doormat for the Captain, what about CRM? At a minimum, I’ll bet they are getting some time in the simulator and a few trips with a Check Pilot. I would also be very surprised if the civil authorities in Germany were not looking for some explanations.

I never cease to be amazed at the public’s apparent need to glorify airplane drivers. I guess it makes us feel comfortable to think some superman is always in command. It’s almost as if Cali(FMS confusion), Air Transat (glider), Hapag-Lloyd (glider), Lexington (wrong runway), DFW (727 attempted take off with flaps up), Air Canada (glider), and many others never happened.

I think you make some very important points. I seriously doubt the company is laying any praise on the pilots for this. Clearly with the trouble they were having landing the aircraft they should have aborted their attempt well before it degraded to a wing strike. We’ve seen a few at our airline and every time the crews were reprimanded. The captain each time was busted back to FO for 6 months to a year and had to be given permission to upgrade again.

Certificated airplanes have a maximum demonstrated crosswind component that they can land in. Most airlines have in their operational manuals the maximum crosswinds that they will operate under.

In my experience some airliners don’t have any demonstrated crosswind listed. We removed ours from the manuals a few years ago (it was 30 kts). The big reason is/was is that a demonstrated crosswind is NOT a limitation. All it does is say what the aircraft manufacturer tested the aircraft at so you are more than legal if you land with more than the listed number. I’ve landed with a 40 knot crosswind but that is about the limit of the flight controls IMHO. Companies don’t want to limit their pilots with a “hard” number because there are too many factors that determine the effect of wind. A constant 30 knot crosswind is a lot different/easier than winds at 10 gusting to 30 knots.

You’re a non-pilot in a different country asking a pilot from another airline, who wasn’t there, had no direct involvement with the incident, “analyses” what happened on the basis of media reports and publically available ATIS, METAR’s and TAF’s but without a transcript of radio communications, the CVR and the FDR or an interview with crew? And to top off all of this consequences for the PFL’s career are also determined as a “free” bonus?

To be fair, a wing strike is never a case of a pilot making the best of a bad situation. A wing strike is an accident or making a bad situation a lot worse. Our last one resulted in the Captain being charged with an Accident which will be on their record for the rest of their career. Even the passengers knew enough that A) a wing strike should never happen in any situation and B) they were lucky it didn’t end up a lot worse. Thank goodness the wing hit the pavement and not the soft earth where it could have dug in.

Let me see if I understand you correctly:

You’re a non-pilot in a different country asking a pilot from another airline, who wasn’t there, had no direct involvementwith the incident, “analyses” what happened on the basis of media reports and publically available ATIS, METAR’s and TAF’s but without a transcript of radio communications, the CVR and the FDR or an interview with crew? And to top off all of this consequences for the PFL’s career are also determined as a “free” bonus?

Correct?

Great, thank you so much. Please forward your results to the German AAIB (here’s their URL: http://www.bfu-web.de) as they can obviously stop their investigations now, and continue with other work at hand.

As a pilot and fairly frequent flyer, allow me to thank you once again for your valuable contribution to aviation safety. I can stop fearing now that a Lufthansa A321 will crash into my son’s kindergarten. The world definitely needs more people like you.

How much expertise does one need to acknowledge a pilot screw up after viewing this video?

I have just talked to a pilot. They tend to be very corporativists in these cases, and always praise the skills of their companions.

In this case, however he tells he wouldn´t have even attempted it. Analyzing all the data, he thinks it´s beyond all reasonable limits, and she was pushing it too far.

He´s competely sure, that she will be “told” something, and even he doesn´t rule out, that she might be fired off.

Let me see if I understand you correctly:

You’re a non-pilot in a different country asking a pilot from another airline, who wasn’t there, had no direct involvementwith the incident, “analyses” what happened on the basis of media reports and publically available ATIS, METAR’s and TAF’s but without a transcript of radio communications, the CVR and the FDR or an interview with crew? And to top off all of this consequences for the PFL’s career are also determined as a “free” bonus?

Correct?

Great, thank you so much. Please forward your results to the German AAIB (here’s their URL: http://www.bfu-web.de) as they can obviously stop their investigations now, and continue with other work at hand.

As a pilot and fairly frequent flyer, allow me to thank you once again for your valuable contribution to aviation safety. I can stop fearing now that a Lufthansa A321 will crash into my son’s kindergarten. The world definitely needs more people like you.

The Pilots should be awared a medal
James

I bet the skipper is awarded the DCM!!

The Swissair incident makes you wonder how the machine retained its undercarriage.

I have just talked to a pilot. They tend to be very corporativists in these cases, and always praise the skills of their companions.

In this case, however he tells he wouldn´t have even attempted it. Analyzing all the data, he thinks it´s beyond all reasonable limits, and she was pushing it too far.

He´s competely sure, that she will be “told” something, and even he doesn´t rule out, that she might be fired off.

Certificated airplanes have a maximum demonstrated crosswind component that they can land in. Most airlines have in their operational manuals the maximum crosswinds that they will operate under. The winds are a key thing that a pilot and dispatcher are supposed to evaluate. It’s pretty clear in this case that they were trying to operate beyond the limits. In this case they should have selected a more appropriate runway (which I understand they did for the second approach) or diverted to another airport with a different runway layout (less crosswind).

Thanks. So as I far as I can understand, it´s not important the speed of the wind, but if it´s crosswind?. Same speed and different runway configuration make a big different, doesn´t it?

An airline the quality of LH will not tolerate such demonstration of poor judgement by a Captain for long. Where was the FO? Was he just a doormat for the Captain, what about CRM? At a minimum, I’ll bet they are getting some time in the simulator and a few trips with a Check Pilot.

Read post 16, he is a she!:)

Yes, I have :-).

Anyway, I this case I don´t know if the pilot is hero or not. I don´t know how it works, and I hope someone could clarify it. The pilots have a forecast, I suppose the tower has to give updates of the changes, and then with the information decides what to do.

Under which circustantes are these approaches safe, or under control?. I have never understood, the words “ladies and gentlemen we are going to attempt……”. Attempt?. I suppose, in aviation there´s no “attempt” but operating in limits where these surprises can be ruled absolutely.

So should the pilot have diverted?. In an approach like this, are the passangers safe?. I don´t see it very clear. Anyone familiar with this stuff?.

Certificated airplanes have a maximum demonstrated crosswind component that they can land in. Most airlines have in their operational manuals the maximum crosswinds that they will operate under. The winds are a key thing that a pilot and dispatcher are supposed to evaluate. It’s pretty clear in this case that they were trying to operate beyond the limits. In this case they should have selected a more appropriate runway (which I understand they did for the second approach) or diverted to another airport with a different runway layout (less crosswind).

I’ve been wondering throughout this thread why no one questioned why the approach was even conducted? Especially at this airport, which has runways arranged in such a way that this shouldn’t happen (they’re not all parallel at Hamburg, as at CDG or ATL for example).

Far, far from getting medal for his “heroics,” I’ll bet this Captain’s Chief Pilot (or whatever LH calls management pilots) was livid and has looked into the incident very thoroughly. An airline the quality of LH will not tolerate such demonstration of poor judgement by a Captain for long. Where was the FO? Was he just a doormat for the Captain, what about CRM? At a minimum, I’ll bet they are getting some time in the simulator and a few trips with a Check Pilot. I would also be very surprised if the civil authorities in Germany were not looking for some explanations.

I never cease to be amazed at the public’s apparent need to glorify airplane drivers. I guess it makes us feel comfortable to think some superman is always in command. It’s almost as if Cali(FMS confusion), Air Transat (glider), Hapag-Lloyd (glider), Lexington (wrong runway), DFW (727 attempted take off with flaps up), Air Canada (glider), and many others never happened.

So should the pilot have diverted?. In an approach like this, are the passangers safe?. I don´t see it very clear. Anyone familiar with this stuff?.

He did divert! He used the alternative runway for his second and successful landing.

Don’t worry Keltic, LH have proved they can handle it!

To give you another sleepless night, you have probably seen the Swissair ‘incident’!:D

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=320_1203457189

Yes, I have :-).

Anyway, I this case I don´t know if the pilot is hero or not. I don´t know how it works, and I hope someone could clarify it. The pilots have a forecast, I suppose the tower has to give updates of the changes, and then with the information decides what to do.

Under which circustantes are these approaches safe, or under control?. I have never understood, the words “ladies and gentlemen we are going to attempt……”. Attempt?. I suppose, in aviation there´s no “attempt” but operating in limits where these surprises can be ruled absolutely.

So should the pilot have diverted?. In an approach like this, are the passangers safe?. I don´t see it very clear. Anyone familiar with this stuff?.

Well that is where the pilots of the world show of there expensive training. Apluads go out to the FO/Captain aswell as the Head FA who would of kept the passengers calm. Great skill by the captain seen both the Video now the picture. Though we were having it bad at LBA and Adel(Bedquiltes) with all the trees falling down at the bottom but man they have had it bad Germany. This is the day and age when we have “Global Warming”:rolleyes:

Don’t worry Keltic, LH have proved they can handle it!

To give you another sleepless night, you have probably seen the Swissair ‘incident’!:D

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=320_1203457189