Well the French, Dutch and Irish rejected the European Constitution so the oligarchs did a bit of tinkering and brought it back as the Lisbon Treaty, which the Irish approved and the French and Dutch didn’t get a second vote, did they? The oligarchs will always win because they make up all the rules to suit purpose.

But that question will never need to be asked. Bit by bit the process moves the juggernaut forward and it will only be stopped by a fundemental breakdown of EU institutions, like the Euro. If we do vote to leave I have a feeling that the EU tanker might be holed below the water line and although initial attempts to plug the hole might succeed bit by bit it will get larger until the tanker eventually sinks, or mixing metaphors, the edifice crumbles.

Impressive mixing of the metaphors there in fact charlie :). There are two opposing views on the EU trajectory post UK departure…largely depending on how successful UK is post divorce. If we, as the Leave team believe, become the object of American, Chinese, Indian, Brazillian etc affection and are courted, feted and showered with many gifts then the danger will be that exit becomes an attractive option and the lashings holding the EU raft together will become very strained (see I can do metaphors too!).

On the other hand if, by leaving the larger entity, we see former EU partners actually become competitors and the national-level trade deals so much touted by Leave dont actually materialise or, more likely, dont materialise in a manner as favourable to the UK as hoped for. Then us kicking our heels wondering what went wrong as we sit lonely and unheralded off the coast of Europe will be a great benefit to the EU as an example of the dangers of pseudo-isolationism and the need for more, and quicker, integration not less.

I have actually been enjoying the Leave campaign so far as its appeal to certain elements I expected to have a galvanising effect on Europe ‘just in case’. I was hoping to see more concessions being offered to undermine Leave. It doesnt look to be happening though. So either the oligarchs dont actually believe we will leave (as I dont tbh) or they are quite happy with the gamble, believe they’re holding the high cards and they are waiting to see if we blink.

Rii,

in Libya, indeed, the UK and France LED the charge to create today’s failed state/ISIS breeding ground/international terrorist arms bazaar/mass immigration transit hub

Wasnt that the popular uprising against Gadaffi that led to the failed state Rii I recall us being late to the party and not stepping in til things really got nasty?. Unless you see the sinister hand of the DGSE and James Bond behind the scenes from the outset?. Aren’t you meant to be all for revolution…power to the people…..throw off your shackles and all that anyway?. Or is it just the west you dont like and shackles are fine as long as they arent American?.

The point is that the problems do not lie in Washington, but in London, and indeed the point holds more broadly: the real problems facing the UK, and which are animating anti-EU sentiment, do not lie in Brussels at all, but in London, with domestic configurations of political power and the interests thereby represented.

No Rii we had immigration issues well before the EU had a hand in things. The issues arent even really in Whitehall though I do understand your desire to make that the reality. The problem is detailed on this thread quite clearly…if it wasnt the half-witted diatribe against the US its the utter conviction, amongst even the articulate and pleasant, that the EU is johnny foreigner trying to stamp his jackboot on our green and pleasant land. Its very elementary xenophobia.

as such, the convenient punching bag that is the EU will probably have to go before the British (English) people are willing to seriously question their masters at home.

Interestingly I think you are close to the mark here, but, you’ve let your agenda dictate your conclusion. When the problem is xenophobia its very easy to make an external group the root cause of the problem. In this case its the EU…not even necessarily the people in other countries….rather its the perceived Rolex-wearing expense-accounted illuminati who sit around dark recesses in Brussels and plot ways to enslave the honest hard working people of Albion. They are the punch bag you note. If they were dispensed with those illuminati, the ‘real’ power behind the govt (nudge, nudge), would pop up in London and things would be all their fault instead. There’s always illuminati when you need to find a scapegoat.