Just a simple question.

Why isn’t anyone talking about population control?
It was a big topic in the 70s-80s..now you never hear of it.

Because population is a solved problem. In fact, fertility levels in most advanced societies — and many that aren’t so advanced — are below replacement level. As for the rest, we know how to get there. Of course, it’ll take some time for that to actually happen, and in any case we’ll spend the next couple of centuries dealing with the growth we’re already committed to, but from a big picture perspective it’s not a complicated problem — we’re not going to go on multiplying like bacteria.

…the availability of so called organic produce at inflated prices will also continue unless it becomes unsustainable.

Which it potentially has in California due to recent drought and subsequent restrictions on the usage of water I believe.

My feeling is that since in one form or another the mutation of plants and crops both naturally and artificially has been with us for so long without people realising it, that it will continue and in another 10, 20 years will be the norm. It will certainly continue to enhance crop yields in the third and second worlds and in many well developed countries as well. And the availability of so called organic produce at inflated prices will also continue unless it becomes unsustainable.

I cannot with truth comment that I’m really bothered one way or another. I’m a strong believer and supporter of scientific research but, not uncritically. GM foods might prove to be the saviour of mankind but, they might not.

Some years ago, I was involved with Imperial College, London on the subject of the safe disposal of some quite nasty toxic waste material. What helped to make our case were the accelerated wear tests that were designed and used whereby we could show that the rate of leaching from an encapsulation medium was – if extrapolated over a long period from condensed experiments in the laboratory – controlled and progressive and did not exceed approved limits for discharge to the environment.

I mention this because if it were possible to devise some kind of accelerated use test for GM foods whereby we condensed say, fifty years of use into six months of laboratory trial, this might have the effect of increasing consumer confidence. How one would induce a mass of people to participate is another matter.

I think you will find that the genetic transformation methods for plants, agrobacterium being the favoured method, are neither botany nor chemistry but the research and applications cross fertilise a myriad of scientific sub-divisions such are the complexities of 21st century science.

What it is called matters little anyway – it is simply the current day application utilising the latest science of what man has been doing for 10,000 years. And it will continue regardless of the outdated concerns of a certain heir to a throne and his fellow travellers.

I agree with Moggy. It is inexplicable in as much as it’s botany not chemistry. Yes I know I’m being pedantic but if we’re going to label things let’s at least get it right.

Then by your definition, plant breeding, as has been practised by horticulturists for centuries is ‘chemistry’

Can you explain that position, because I find it inexplicable?

Mogy

Your inference is, that you hold me to account, because you find something inexplicable !

My cousin, a botanist, tells me that such things as growth accelerators and retardants, disease inhibitors of one kind or another are some of the prizes derived from the process of selectivity.

If a plant is bred to exude a chemical designed to be toxic to a range of insects or, by its presence in the fabric of the plant to repel some parasite or another – that’s chemistry.

David Attenborough suggests that some form of population control should be introduced in Africa to counter the environmental damage caused by the West.

I can’t even begin to understand that.

But I think one reason why the topic has dropped of the US media radar is suggesting such a thing would be looked upon by many as racist.

Then by your definition, plant breeding, as has been practised by horticulturists for centuries is ‘chemistry’

Can you explain that position, because I find it inexplicable?

Mogy

Which ever direction you come from it is chemistry. Whether it is natural chemistry or made in a laboratory it is still chemistry.

having witnessed two or three man made chemical disasters as I’m sure you have, makes me very cautious,

Indeed. But what has this to do with chemicals?

Moggy

If you do indeed espouse those opinions then yes you are sir.

I see no further point in contributing to this thread.

You assume I am some “Chicken Little” character and have no understanding of the ‘science’ behind GMO crops. I have no need to ‘thump any tubs’ to try and convince you, or any other pro-GMO forum member, of the uncertainty of the headlong rush to adopt GMO as the solution to the question of world food supply in the future.
You go ahead and place your complete trust in a handful of companies, whose over riding purpose is to make shed loads of money for their shareholders.

Over and out……

You may be correct but, having witnessed two or three man made chemical disasters as I’m sure you have, makes me very cautious,

The creation of a GM foodstuff requires a change in its molecular structure to help faster growth or, act as a barrier deterrent to whatever parasite it is hoped to defeat. I do not think that it is too far fetched to accept that this molecular change, could be perhaps responsible for long term adverse effects in humans.

As it’s basically science short cutting what can also be (and has always been) achieved by traditional plant breeding the only increase in risk I can detect is that things happen more rapidly, so more varieties can be bred.

But I do not pretend any expertise or knowledge.

Moggy

I fear the Chuckle Brothers are outside my realm of experience.

I have heard the name, and that’s about it.

Moggy

woo

n.(or adj), the way a person is when they uncritically believe unsubstantiated or unfounded ideas. Short for “woo woo”.(See Russell’s definition of woo woo)

Shirley believes that in a past life she was the Jolly Green Giant of Rainbowland. Shirley is very woo.

Moggy

I thought that that was a Chuckle Brother

If you do indeed espouse those opinions then yes you are sir.

The point made by Bob almost exactly underlines and emphasises why we should all have concerns about GM. I am not inferring that it is not the answer or, will never be, to the problem of feeding the multitudes, what I’m saying is that unlike almost everything in life it has not been thru’ the long drawn out process of evolutionary development with the very very long lead in times that appears to be required for safe acceptance by humans.

To amplify Bob’s point, what kind of mad, thoughtless husbandry could ever have thought it acceptable and penalty free for animal protein to be fed to herbivores. Not even omnivores but, herbivores !

There is no scientific argument that I can present to you that will convince. Just this: it makes complete sense to me to believe that the way that we live to-day is a consequence of evolution. I believe that some of the more serious ‘lifestyle’ diseases from which we suffer are due to the adoption of unhealthy manufactured foodstuffs. Man has been on this planet for some thousands of years and survived – tho’ falling prey to other diseases – on what is referred to as a Stone Age diet, meaning a largely uncooked diet rich in natural vitamins and minerals.

The last one hundred and fifty years has seen a massive change in our diet to processed foods including refined sugar and fat – lethal fat of the hydrogenated type and incapable of being digested by any animal, human or otherwise. It is my belief that this dramatic change in our feeding habits has produced a lethal re-action in humans equivalent to that seen in animals fed with animal protein.

The creation of a GM foodstuff requires a change in its molecular structure to help faster growth or, act as a barrier deterrent to whatever parasite it is hoped to defeat. I do not think that it is too far fetched to accept that this molecular change, could be perhaps responsible for long term adverse effects in humans.

I am no expert but, it seems that the evolutionary mutant blood diseases sickle cell anaemia and thalassaemia, which have evolved in certain parts of the world, are protective against parasitical attack but, when they arrive in countries where these parasites are not present, they can present many health problems for the unfortunate sufferer and his/her descendants.

We should pay much more attention to the evolutionary imperative.

woo

n.(or adj), the way a person is when they uncritically believe unsubstantiated or unfounded ideas. Short for “woo woo”.(See Russell’s definition of woo woo)

Shirley believes that in a past life she was the Jolly Green Giant of Rainbowland. Shirley is very woo.

Moggy

Will do Moggy.
Bob, you choose to take my non targeted comments personally, that is your choice.
The impact on nature has been seen, there is none. You and others are choosing to ignore that and continue to make vague fear mongering claims of unforeseen consequences to the detriment of development and ironically the very environment you are claiming to wish to protect.
How much water is required to produce “organic” produce compared to certain GMO strains of the same product? How much strong pesticide and / or herbicide is required to produce “organic” produce compared to certain GMO strains? You will, I suspect, be surprised at the answers. It does not favour “organic.”
To point to previous failures that have subsequently ensured that the very testing you are denying does indeed take place as evidence of danger is simplistic woo and nonsense.

Dear Moggy,
I’m not the one using comments such as “ill informed woo spouting idiots” or “the local idiot” – I would hope to rise above such ad hominem responses. I have my opinions on GMO and nothing I have read so far has altered my stance.
I guess I’ll never see the impact (good or bad) on nature – I will be long gone and just fertiliser by then….