Do we need to take stock of our society, the way we live and make a change?

10.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.

re-written
Thou shalt not covert thy neighbours Spitfire.

So it does not need to be rewritten!!;)

The Ten Commandments are not perfectly written. They could perhaps be re-written using modern idiom with more focus on the way we currently live our lives.

10.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.

re-written
Thou shalt not covert thy neighbours Spitfire.

Chatlie,
But, they are a start and we do urgently need something to fill the moral vacuum.

Can’t argue with that, John.

In short, yes, I do think UK society needs to take stock, develop a respect for others, and learn that instant gratification and a celebrity-lifestyle for all without a thought for the long term consequence, is simply not sustainable….

I agree with you totally. But as I put in my first post, I don’t know where you would begin to change things. We now have more than one generation of folk, who have never known anything other than the ‘celebrity, me first, instant gratification’ society, that is endemic today. In short, I personally think its too late, unless some form of ‘subliminal brain washing’ was embedded in TV signals! I understand that the North Koreans, are a dab hand at that kind of thing.

Chatlie,

It could have been from almost any source, it didn’t have to be the Church. In your case it was your family who provided your moral compass as indeed it was with me plus the influence of my schools.

I mentioned the Church because it was extremely influential with many – I don’t know if it was a majority – people attending, at least on a Sunday, on a regular basis. Perhaps simplistically – because that is my default position – my promotion of the Ten Commandments as a standard by which to conduct one’s life, suggested that this code was the most attainable and one that could easily be understood and least capable of misinterpretation.

The Ten Commandments are not perfectly written. They could perhaps be re-written using modern idiom with more focus on the way we currently live our lives. But, they are a start and we do urgently need something to fill the moral vacuum.

This probably comes across as if we feel smug and morally “superior” to those who do not share our values, which is definitely not the case… sometimes we do wonder if we should simply have “gone with the flow” and not worried about being able to pay the bills each month..?)

Quite the reverse. I agree with almost everything you have said and so would many others here, I think. You have set out what seems to be the majority view. And those final few word are the most telling. Had people abided by that simple tenet the boom in unsafe lending and house price escalation would never have happened.

However I remain unconvinced that the church necessarily provided the right or wrong ethic. I grew up during the late forties/early fifties in an atheist household, unusual for the time, but the basic tenets of right and wrong, discipline, self-respect and respect and consideration for others, responsibility and common sense were deeply instilled into me both at home and at school.

to get back on thread track….

A fair few posters (postees?) have suggested that in the past “common sense” and “religion” have largely kept society on the straight and narrow, whereby “self gratification” and “putting oneself first” have not been seen as desirable social traits.

The problem as I see it is that “common sense” is now largely driven by what many see in the popular media, where “I want and must have it all now”, “it’s every man for himself” and “celebrity = instant wealth and fame” have taken over from “you have to work (hard) first to obtain what you want” and “think of others first”

Add in the fact that UK society is now seeing the first generation of those that subscribe to the materialistic “celebrity culture” start to produce offspring who have only known this “it’s all about me, me, me” mentality, and the notion of doing anything for the benefit of the wider society at any expense to your own personal gain now holds very little sway with many.

And, with the decrease attendance at “churches” of many denominations, this too means few people ever hear the “put others first, “do as you would be done by” messages most christian faiths offer. (And no, I am not going to get into the argument as to whether religion is right or wrong, necessary or unnecessary – I have my own views on that) Right or wrong, few can argue that a few generations ago, a far higher percentage of the UK population attended ‘church’, and so would have consciously or sub-consciously heard that sort of moral teaching.

So, a lack of widespread moral teaching from “christian religions”, plus an ever-growing “materialistic” lifestyle portrayed as “desirable” in the media, can surely only lead to an ever more self-centred society?

Greedy bankers, benefit fraud, “we’ll sell you your dream lifestyle” ads, easy credit, a reliance on second hand “gossip” rather than personal experience of things, these all add further to the belief that one deserves “it” all, right here, right now, without having to work too hard for “it”.

Add in the loss of values such as “self control”, “team work” and “respect for others” etc that national/military service would also have instilled in a large percentage of the population, and the slippery slope becomes well greased too….

In short, yes, I do think UK society needs to take stock, develop a respect for others, and learn that instant gratification and a celebrity-lifestyle for all without a thought for the long term consequence, is simply not sustainable….

Personally I/we live by “if we cannot afford it we simply don’t buy it” (with exception of our house where bought within a price range that meant we have always had a mortgage we could afford), “if we want it we save for it”, and “we don’t need to wear, eat, drive designer labels”. We don’t go on flash holidays, or buy things we cannot afford, nor do we change the car and TV every few years just to keep up with the Jones’s.

We make do and mend, we look out for our families and our neighbours, and we don’t aspire to fame and fortune…. We have, and continue to be prepared to, work (hard) for a decent standard of living.

Are we at odds with modern UK society – definitely, but at least we are happy with our lot, and don’t owe anybody anything :).

And no, neither of us came from “well off” families – we are both children of firmly working class parents who had reasonably good ‘moral compasses’ based on christian values (note the lower case “c”) , and we have tried our best to pass the same moral values on to our offspring.

Whether they now choose to follow the same values themselves as adults, or choose to subscribe to many of their peers’ views that “wealth is everything you need and desire” is now their choice … at least we feel we have done our best for them, and have not succumbed to the blatantly materialistic values that we believe are doing so much damage to UK society.

Paul F

(P.S. This probably comes across as if we feel smug and morally “superior” to those who do not share our values, which is definitely not the case… sometimes we do wonder if we should simply have “gone with the flow” and not worried about being able to pay the bills each month..?)

I’m sure that the old men of ancient Greece felt that the youth were being most disrespectful towards them when they started to refuse to be ******** left, right and centre.

Well in the main they were not because they entered into the acts willingly, because the relationships between males were fundamental to the strengthening of the sex for battle and military honour. The Greeks had no barriers of age or consent so we cannot make an analogy with our own times.

Pederasty was a de rigeur in ancient greece, I’m sure that the old men of ancient Greece felt that the youth were being most disrespectful towards them when they started to refuse to be ******** left, right and centre. I’m making the point that moral standards can be twisted either side of a generation in a sarcastic way and thought that the comment in the context of the quote included was self-explantory. ******y is still called ‘a bit of Greek’ in reference to the cultured boy-lovers of those years.

Well, a few do, because they run out of steam. But that’s same on other forums I would suggest. My own view in that threads should be locked after they’ve had a decent run.

Yeah, youngsters these days even refuse to engage in pederasty.

Eh??

I think I’ve had enough of this place. Most threads seem to degenerate into nonsense these days.

Mark.
Mid week is good for me.
I’ll let you know.
A.

Oh Andy, the cod have turned up it seems, I landed 4 this morning, so whenever you fancy a ride out you’re welcome. weekdays are better for me.

I wouldn’t mind betting that every generation has complained about declining moral standards in the younger generation. I believe Andrew Marr mentioned that very problem with reference to the ancient Greece.

Yeah, youngsters these days even refuse to engage in pederasty.

Of course, when we visited that lovely family, the Muslim Brotherhood was not so pervasive as it is now, indeed, at the time, I don’t think I had heard of them. I have always been suspicious of Erdogan, and I think the west would be wise to be careful in its dealings with him.

Back on topic, beloved and I have just returned from the weekly shop. I have to use a white cane when out and about. Today I was walked into by an adult texting on her phone. She knocked my cane to the ground without any apology. My partner went after her, I don’t know what she said, but beloved came back with a face like thunder. That is the third time in as many wks that this has happened. On the first occasion, I was told to watch where I was going, I retorted to the ‘gentleman’ “Well you have the advantage over me” I don’t want to be treated like royalty, just a little understanding that’s all. Such is modern society, but not all of it.

Nice photo Al…the Bucc one obviously…not those other ugly things 🙂

Will their children be ‘led astray’ by the influences of ‘western lifestyles and beliefs? A distinct possibility, but maybe, just maybe, they’ll find a way, to link the two worlds together, and keep those sense of values with them.

I would certainly like to think so. My dealings with Muslims here and on the continent has been all good. The moderate Muslim is a friend of the West happy to involve themselves in our life but also to retain their own culture without imposing it on ours.

My caveat to this idyll is the growth of the Muslim Brotherhood as the older pro-Western regimes are replaced across the Arab world. That organisation does not hold the West in any esteem. One of its strongest supporters, Mr Erdogan of Turkey, summed up the patient 90 year wait for power when he said “Democracy is like a bus or tram. You ride it until you arrive at your destination and then you step off”. My worry is for the future of Muslims like your friends when the bus stops.

EGTC. Sorry to hear that you did not eventually get the career that you worked so hard to get, but it sounds as though you’ve set up a really worthwhile, and fulfilling one. All I ever wanted to do, was work as cabin crew, but for health reasons, it was never going to happen. So I worked 25 years in the airline industry on the ground. I’ll health struck again 2 years ago, so that had to end too. I miss it, and the terrific friends I made doing it.

Back in 2005, my partner and I took the holiday of a lifetime, in the form of a 3 week trip to Egypt, the historic part, not the Red Sea region. What struck me most, was the people. We were lucky enough, to stay with the family of our guide, for a couple of days. They lived about half an hour south of Cairo.

What really struck me, was their sense of values, and their take on what was really important in life. They had a modest, but clean house, located right on the bank of the Nile, along with the other homes in the village. They seemed genuinely happy with their lot in life. Their two children, still in school, wore immaculately kept uniforms, and appeared to enjoy a good education. One morning, we accompanied the mother down to the river bank itself, to do the laundry! This was when all the news and village gossip was shared. And I challenge anyone to find cleaner while washing, than that which festooned the village wash lines and balconies! The father ran a little small holding, and this supplied the bulk of the family income, along with selling fish, which both he and his son cought themselves. The youngest son ran his own little roadside stall, selling figs, and eggs. Healthy respect for parents was a given. They had TV, so knew what was going on in the world. The house itself had been handed down for generations, and by the look of things, this would not change.

The priorities of those lovely folk, were very different. None of this endless ‘tread milling’ towards a bigger car/house, the latest mobile, numerous holidays etc etc. They were genuinely happy to have a good roof over their heads, good and bountiful food on their table, and good friends. We were made very welcome, and being as we were very much unexpected visitors, I doubt very much, that we were watching a Disneyesque stage show by these lovely people. Despite our best efforts to pay them for their kindness and hospitality, they would take no money.

Mention has already been made on here, of the importance of good family life. And there was very good evidence of that with our Egyptian hosts. It was no idyll, just lives being led, with a very different set of values and priorities to our own. Will their children be ‘led astray’ by the influences of ‘western lifestyles and beliefs? A distinct possibility, but maybe, just maybe, they’ll find a way, to link the two worlds together, and keep those sense of values with them.

I wouldn’t mind betting that every generation has complained about declining moral standards in the younger generation.

That is undoubtedly true, and I can bear testament to it!!

Meanwhile back at the thread……

I wouldn’t mind betting that every generation has complained about declining moral standards in the younger generation. I believe Andrew Marr mentioned that very problem with reference to the ancient Greece.