Libya Eh???

Best possible outcome from the events in Libya

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/09/21/benghazi-anti-militia-protest-libyan-demonstrators_n_1905682.html?

Harsh that it came at the price it did but moderate Islam taking to the fore to define the limits on what can be done in the name of the prophet is a hugely significant step forward for the future of the region.

Indeed but it wasn’t the cause.

Some wars have caused by religion undoubtedly but WW1, WW2, Vietnam, Korea, GW1, Boer War, etc. didn’t really have a religious element in the cause.

Does not the extermination of 6 million Jews in WW2 count as a religious factor?

The irony there Matt is that you are making exactly the same mistake that the islamic rioters are. This isnt the Libyan people ranting and raving….this is some people in Libya ranting and raving….the difference is very significant.

I understand where you’re coming from, but on my TV I see streets packed full of rioters – thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of people.
The offensive video in question contained just 10 actors.
I’d say it was therefore a lot easier for me to generalise than the Libyan protesters.

On a side note, this video give me chills… Some of the things he says almost foreshadow his fate. RIP senator 🙁

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwYAT5wxI2E

But then they go and kill innocent people. Whilst the video was very offensive, you can’t justify killing the ambassador who had nothing to do with its production.

The irony there Matt is that you are making exactly the same mistake that the islamic rioters are. This isnt the Libyan people ranting and raving….this is some people in Libya ranting and raving….the difference is very significant.

The elements rioting are largely doing so as they’ve been led by the nose to do so by their religious leaderships…they would find it inconceivable that someone hasnt led those making the film in the same manner. The people stirring the pot, the radical islamists, know that they can pick whichever bogeyman they fancy as it doesnt really matter to those rioting provided ‘someone’ feels their wrath. Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers as the saying goes…and unfortunately its not just sections of Mohammads followers that fall into that category…I know several devout, true, believers of other religious persuasions capable of equal faith-based stupidity!.

I have always liked the description of religious conflict as ‘the act of arguing, beyond reason, as to who’s imaginary friend is the bigger!”. I think that really conveys the level of intelligence required to pursue such lunacy.

I totally agree! These nations claim they’ve reformed and they’re now civilised and democratic…

But then they go and kill innocent people. Whilst the video was very offensive, you can’t justify killing the ambassador who had nothing to do with its production.

A western reaction knee-jerking to the view “stuff the ungrateful muslim ****’s” is just what militant Islam wants to see out of this.

Libya gave them a big problem. It wasnt principally a US operation and there was no outcry over insidious hands trying to control oil. It was, on the public face of it, genuine international support…and real materiel support at that…for those wishing to rid themselves of an entrenched and unpopular dictator.

Last thing hard-line Islam wants is too many of its adherents thinking for themselves, getting an appreciation for freedom and self-determination and realising that there is a big wide world out there that is not unfriendly towards them. That being something the Arab Spring has been close to doing, but, hasn’t quite got ignited fully yet. Something like this film, that can snap the faithful back into their pious narrow-visioned world, is a gift from….well….Allah!.

If our, the wests, reaction is aggressive its a gift to the extremists who will use it to make a ‘them vs. us’ issue out of nothing and all the good work that has gone in bringing freedom from tyranny to those states will be wasted. The important thing to note, I think, is that the muslim world would have been up in arms about this film anyway….regardless of the Arab Spring…those Danish cartoons and that half-wit pastors antics last time show this clearly. If we disconnect this issue from the work to help people in the middle east its a lot easier to deal with.

While its true that it was a minority that perpetrated this terrible act, I become ever more frustrated at the lack of outcry in the Muslim world when people use their supposedly peaceful religion to do this stuff. I’ve seen some photos of Libyans holding up signs apologizing to America for the deaths, but why can’t this sentiment be more prevalent in the Muslim world….if indeed it is a peaceful religion.

I want to give their religion the benefit of the doubt but it grows ever more difficult to do that.

RIP to the victims…

When was that Al? and isn’t religion(all religion) wonderful. Man can look the same, dress the same have the same needs and desires but is happy to kill one another because they have a differant belief!

It was called the ‘Plantation’ of Ulster, and mainly started in the early 1600s…

We don’t aid these countries because we `care`, we aid them to manipulate them for our own gains. When they turn and bite we shed crocadile tears, get upset and then use that as a political excuse to flatten them.
Then we re-arm whoever is left and the cycle continues.
It’s good for arms sales and our own political standing.

Paul 178, Al, and TonyT.

I don’t know what your take is on this, but hasn’t NEARLY every War been caused by different Religions?, which has been going on for hundreds of years. IF, we all become Muslims or some other religion, would that stop war altogether.
Jim.
Lincoln .7

Some wars have caused by religion undoubtedly but WW1, WW2, Vietnam, Korea, GW1, Boer War, etc. didn’t really have a religious element in the cause.

Paul 178, Al, and TonyT.

I don’t know what your take is on this, but hasn’t NEARLY every War been caused by different Religions?, which has been going on for hundreds of years. IF, we all become Muslims or some other religion, would that stop war altogether.
Jim.
Lincoln .7

You forget only one thing…. within every religion there are multiple belief groups.. Sunni, Shi’ite, Catholic, C of E, etc.

The only religion which doesn’t care about slight changes in belief is the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, with the rather useful slogan of ‘prove your god exists, and I’ll stop believing in mine’.

I am an agnostic, The whole world is invited to believe as I do,I don’t want to kill anyone,

Paul 178, Al, and TonyT.

I don’t know what your take is on this, but hasn’t NEARLY every War been caused by different Religions?, which has been going on for hundreds of years. IF, we all become Muslims or some other religion, would that stop war altogether.
Jim.
Lincoln .7

When was that Al? and isn’t religion(all religion) wonderful. Man can look the same, dress the same have the same needs and desires but is happy to kill one another because they have a differant belief!

Northern Ireland is hardly a comparison – the Roman Catholics in NI only became a minority there when the UK government intentionally flooded the country with (mainly) Scottish Protestant immigrants, in a successful bid to outnumber and outvote them…

Tony T yet again I agree with you but taking NI in certain areas it did make me rather twitchy!

Democracy isn’t a word in their language, true they demolished the war graves and killed the Ambassador, but remember… At the end of the day, these are a small minority involved, think of N Ireland, we didn’t blame the whole population because of the IRA etc, the same should be viewed of Libya… Don’t kill off a burgeoning country because of a few individuals.

We decided to help with their “regime change” so we have an obligation to help sort out the mess we were partly responsible for.
I can understand the sentiment of wanting to leave them to it, especially after events like this, but we are a part of the problem/solution whether we like it or not.

I can’t understand the gushing western support for these ‘Arab Spring’ nations – all democracy means to them is they can vote in some Islamic fundamentalist party which will inevitably turn around and bite us…