Confronting the Haka

Rich, the haka these days, like many other Maori traditions including the language, is taught in most schools across the country. Most secondary schools seem to have their own distictive haka that they learn, and will perform at inter-school sporting events to spur their team on, or at other functions, etc. Anyone and everyone who wants to these days can usually learn it at school.

Top notch. I only wish British schools were as attentive to their culture and traditions.

Dave.

Your eagerness to adopt other cultures present and native to your home country tells me and no doubt others that you are not comfortable in your skin. Why ever not ?

Your ethnic heritage is a heritage that has contributed more to the civilized progress of mankind than any other. Wherever you look and whatever you examine, the influence of the Anglo Saxon Jutish people and indeed the Celtic component of these Islands is monumental and exceptional.

In law, language, medicine, philosophy, music, literature, engineering, science, chemistry, physics and aviation the list is comprehensive, influential and has shaped the world that we see and experience to-day.

Nothing and no one is perfect. There is much in the past of our people that is to be regretted. However, the consensus seems to be that wherever and whenever the English exerted their influence, for the most part, only good came from their presence.

I know that there will be many who will, for political or cultural reasons or sheer bloodymindedness disagree with the above. I ask them to look at the history of the world.

You do not have to defend or explain the haka, or NZ native culture. It stands on its merits. Most of us are entirely comfortable and accepting of that but don’t insist that we pay an exaggerated respect that it really doesn’t deserve unlike the truly massive contribution to the world made by the English

E&OE.

John Green

“You don’t like the haka because it was not inventd by the whites, and it is therefore racist?”
That’s not how positive discrimination works. A better example would be an employer purposefully employing a Black person – just to get his total “Non white” count up to the national average and thus shouldering the defence from any minority group which may try and use the lower figure against him.

As for the ethnic debate, I don’t care, ban the lot. Stick to National anthems.

Anyway, it’s half-time Eng vs Oz. Good game, and we’re winning.

Out of curiosity, where is the haka learned? I guess the Maori learn it from a young age as it is a tradition; but how do the non Maori members of the All Blacks learn it?

Not that I want to learn it myself… I have just enough rhythm to be able to walk properly!

Rich, the haka these days, like many other Maori traditions including the language, is taught in most schools across the country. Most secondary schools seem to have their own distictive haka that they learn, and will perform at inter-school sporting events to spur their team on, or at other functions, etc. Anyone and everyone who wants to these days can usually learn it at school.

Maori also learn their traditions on the Marae (the cultural meeting place of their tribe where all the traditions are passed down and ceremonies, festive occasions, funerals (tangi) etc are held.

Also with learning the language there’s the option for pre-schoolers to be immersed in Maori language kindergarten type of things called Kohanga Reo, which gives them a grounding in the language. I doubt they learn the haka that young though.

Members of our Army, Air Force and Navy also learn the haka these days and each service has its own Kapa Haka group who perform at special ceremonies, etc. But from what I gather, unlike my days, they all (from whaetever racial background) seem to get taught it and perform a haka on their graduation day nowadays.

The All Blacks have special training sessions in the haka, just as they do in every other aspect ofthe game. Many of the All Blacks are hard core into it – and I don’t just mean the Maori members. Watch the likes of Ali Williams when he performs the haka, and even Dan Carter, they really put their souls into it.

These days most school rugby teams have their own school haka as I said bt you might be interested that NZ and the Pacific are not the only places this happens. Most of the College football teams in the USA have their own haka now, big burley Americans in pads and helmets perform a haka before their games all over the USA these days.

We still do not understand why you, as a non Maori, are fighting so hard in their corner?

I am defending the haka because it is a national tradition in New Zealand that is respected hugely by all of our nation’s people from whatever background, and is almost sacred to many, yet it has been roundly criticised and denegrated here in a rather offensive way by those ignorant to how New Zealanders feel about it. I am not standing up for Maori culture or Maori people, far be it for me to do that although in the right circumstances I would, but as i have tried to explain, as has nuumannn, the haka transcends racial distinction these days and is part of New Zealand as a whole. Because I am a New Zealander, I am proud of my country, and our traditions and national culture. So when I see some of the things written here which I clearly diagree with, then why not offer my opinion?

The All Blacks are not the only people who perform the haka, although you as a foreigner may only ever see them doing it. But it’s a widely seen part of life here in NZ and we have grown accustomed to it and learned to respect it. It seems you really have little idea of what it really is all about, and from the attitudes displayed here have little interest in learning.

Or, is the relationship between NZ white folk and the Maori a little better respected than Oz and the Aborigine?

Two completely different countries, cultures, subjects and kettles of fish. New Zealanders are not Australian. Many English don’t seem to realise this so for the benefit of those who don’t – we are completely seperate. I have never been there so it is not for me to comment on the state of race relations in that country, but from what I have learned from reading, learning and listening, the way that white Australia interacts with the native Australians, and vice versa, is completely, utterly and totally different from any situation here in New Zealand and has been since day one of colonisation.

I am by no means saying that race relations here are perfect as they are not, and there are certainly a lot of things in Maori culture I disagree with or do not like. But then you’ll find that with any culture, there are things about the English that irk me sometimes though generally I think they’re fantastic, most of them.

But believe it or not when you remove the radicals, politicians and rednecks on all sides, most average kiwis from any racial background get on pretty well together side by side.

One can never deny that English is indeed the finest language in the World.
Others of course have 100% right to speak what they like, but they need English also.

I don’t recall saying anything against the English language, ever. It’s the only language I choose to speak, read and write fluently, and it comes in quite handy sometimes. My beef was you stated that the haka pre-dated language. There’s just no logic in that.

Apart from the fact that, as you said, We English / Brits have a problem with other nations. Well, some do, others just know that most nations once ruled by GB and threw us out, have now failed. The Empire was “Ripped apart at the seams” I saw somebody post…..well, their loss entirely.

New Zealand is still part of the British Commonwealth and we still have Queen Elizabeth II as our Sovereign, and God Save The Queen is stil our National Anthem. But we are ever increasingly diversifying away from the old British colonial mould that shaped the country originally and becoming more and more our own individual nation, New Zealand. Part of that is, as well as retaining our much valued and loved tradition and heritage from the past (inherited mostly from Britain and Europe) we also embrace our own culture that is uniquely from right here in the shakey isles. One part of that is the haka, it is ours and it is part of us as a nation.

That is what I have tried to get across, you don’t have to be born into a specific race or tribe to embrace it as part of your culture. Surely you must see that, we in NZ are a multi-cultural society with loads of cross-overs in all directions but we are all New Zealanders at the end of the day, and we all live alongside each other so cannot help be influenced by our neighbours who do things a bit differently. Many of the influences are great, others are less welcome, but that is what makes up a functioning society.

Do you not have that in modern British culture? Are things not adopted or influenced from those around you in Great Britain who come from different backgrounds than the average Anglo-Saxon? Are things like a curry night, a kebab, lager, and soccer not great British traditions – all brought there by immigrants or those Brits who adpoted them when they were abroad? Yet they’re still part of your life and you’re comfortable with most of them. Life is a tapestry, and is complex, and you make what you want of it. Trying to avoid the influence of others is avoiding the opportunity to learn and grow and experience life, and you’ll have a very sorry, dull existence.

So, one typo and I can’t spell, fine.

Or count? There were at least two spellings as Mauri, and I decided to nip it in the bud before you continued forming a habit. If both were pure accident, I apologise.

I still object to the Haka because it is positive discrimination. Allowing a “Non White” cultural episode to be endured every game, they dare not ban it for fear of being called racist.

You don’t like the haka because it was not inventd by the whites, and it is therefore racist?

I think that there is more than a hint of truth in your last sentence. More to the point – it should be said openly and without the threat of accusations of racism. For years now, I’ve thought that there is more than a hint of cringing subservience to the idea that most ethnics are hard done by and require a rather patronising policy of ego massage.

Whilst trying to take in this theory of John’s, I decided to look up the meaning of the word “ethnic” in the Oxford English Dictionary. As I thought it says “Of a racial group.”

Well the All Blacks this year have had caucasian New Zealanders who know doubt have blood from vaying racial backgrounds such as English, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, German, etc. There have also been full and part-Maori members, Tongans, Fijians, Samoans, I think even one from even Niue performing the haka. So that description doesn’t apply as it is not related to one racial group.

So he must mean the second OED explanation which is “resembling the peasant clothes of primitive people”. Ah yes, that’ll be it. You’re quite right PeeDee, English is the “finest language in the World.” The OED explains all: the All Blacks did slightly resemble the falling apart peasant clothes of the primitive English team’s ‘away’ strip.

I still don’t see what that has to do with it though.

Many ethnic people that I know, some of whom I call friend, are bewildered and in some cases affronted by the fawning and demeaning attitudes shown to them by the majority.

It must be their peasant clothes I guess?

PeeDee,

I think that there is more than a hint of truth in your last sentence. More to the point – it should be said openly and without the threat of accusations of racism. For years now, I’ve thought that there is more than a hint of cringing subservience to the idea that most ethnics are hard done by and require a rather patronising policy of ego massage.

Many ethnic people that I know, some of whom I call friend, are bewildered and in some cases affronted by the fawning and demeaning attitudes shown to them by the majority. The exaggerated ‘respect’ accorded to the Haka is perhaps a demonstration of this.

John Green

You might as well stop while you’re so far behind PeeDee, You come across as a complete twit with your statements.

Mauri? You cannot even spell Maori yet you think you’re an expert in their culture?

I am never behind, my NZ subject.
We still do not understand why you, as a non Maori, are fighting so hard in their corner? Or, is the relationship between NZ white folk and the Maori a little better respected than Oz and the Aborigine?
One can never deny that English is indeed the finest language in the World.
Others of course have 100% right to speak what they like, but they need English also.
I am certainly no expert in ancient cultures from the far corners, what on Earth forces you into that thought. Apart from the fact that, as you said, We English / Brits have a problem with other nations. Well, some do, others just know that most nations once ruled by GB and threw us out, have now failed. The Empire was “Ripped apart at the seams” I saw somebody post…..well, their loss entirely.
So, one typo and I can’t spell, fine.
I still object to the Haka because it is positive discrimination. Allowing a “Non White” cultural episode to be endured every game, they dare not ban it for fear of being called racist.

Out of curiosity, where is the haka learned? I guess the Maori learn it from a young age as it is a tradition; but how do the non Maori members of the All Blacks learn it?

Not that I want to learn it myself… I have just enough rhythm to be able to walk properly!

So why do they do a Haka for HM QE2 when she goes there?

The custom dictates that a traditional welcome is done, which includes a warrior raising a challenge by stepping forward with a taiaha, which is essentially a long handled club, and laying down an offering. The welcomed party, by way of accepting the challenge picks up the offering, usually a leaf or branch or such like. Songs of welcome are sung in the traditional way and the party is welcomed onto the Marae, or meeting place, but also refers to any airport, seaport (before Britannia was permanently stuck in Leith) or local town meeting place.

Although many of the Maori chants performed are warlike in nature, they are not strictly haka, as this was a war dance. The Maori were a warrior race and looked for any excuse for a fight, so this is reflected in almost every aspect of Maori culture; in carvings, songs, games etc.

When the first Eurpoeans encountered the Maori (this is believed in contemporary histories to be Abel Tasman, but some researchers believe that a Portuguese navigator in the service of the Spanish arrived here some time before Tasman), they were frightened off by the aggression of the natives, but they were probably just welcoming the newcomers. Once Cook arrived and had been welcomed in the traditional way, he managed to upset them, so they killed some of his party. Such were the customs of the day. I sooo wish we could still do this. Foreign policy would be so much more streamlined :diablo:

Many sociologists offer the premise of the dejection of Maori today being because the warrior spirit has been suppressed in modern times. My uncle served in Vietnam (he’s a White boy, no Maori blood) and he always stated that the Maoris made the best soldiers because they were quiet in waiting, but fearless and utterly ruthless in a fight; their biggest problem, they were too impatient.

Oddly, he said the Americans were too noisy, you could hear them chatting away and rustling through the jungle like a herd of bulldozers, and the Aussies just didn’t want to be there.

here’s a quaint little tale I really enjoy. The hangi, or earth oven takes awhile to cook, so when Maori wanted to find out when it was done, they used to take a severed head from one of their adversaries killed in combat (a common means of keeping tally of kills in many native cultures) and place it on top of the Hangi pit. Once the hangi was done, the head would roll off. 😀

Apparently the head would absorb moisture rising from the ground and become unstable. These days traditional Maori use melons. Not the same, is it?

🙂

You may continue with the fisticuffs now…

Dave,

Have you never heard of typos ? You commit a few yourself. Quit while you’re in the lead !

John Green

You might as well stop while you’re so far behind PeeDee, You come across as a complete twit with your statements.

Mauri? You cannot even spell Maori yet you think you’re an expert in their culture?

PeeDee, I suggest you read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haka

I have no idea what on earth you meant by “When the spoken word was established, stuff like the Haka was laughed at….be it right or wrong.”

The haka relies upon the spoken word as its most dominant part. Do you think they were silent haka before the English arrived, and the missionaries educated them how to speak??

An observer would say that the dominant part was the Gurning and the Chest beating / foot stamping. As only the Mauri and a few others understand the words, they are a bit lost.
If the missionaries taught them to speak, it would of course be in the finest and most important language in the World. English of course, I’d even settle for the American version!

Captain Rangiataahua Kiniwe Royal was a remarkable man by the sound of things. He enlisted in 1917 and served in NZ and overseas in WWI and till 1919. On the 25th of November 1919 he re-enlisted and was appointed OC of B Company of the newly formed Maori Battalion.

As well as the Military Cross at 42nd Street, Crete, he was later awarded a Bar to the MC for action at Gazala. He was also wounded in that action. Following this he was ordered home and ended up training more men for the 28th (Maori) Battalion. He had two sons who also served in WWII, one in the RNZAF and the other in the last reinforcements of Maori Battalion.

between the wars and after discharge in 1944 Rangi Royal worked in the Maori Affairs Department of Government and eventually becoming Controller of Maori Social and Economic Welfare. No doubt a well respected man with a lot of mana. He died in 1965.

Excellent post. The Military Cross was well deserved by the sound of it.

I am going to rejoin this conversation because by pure chance I just found the following passage in a book I am reading, called Mates and Mayhem, compiled by Lawrence Watt, in a chapter written by NZ Army veteran Alf Voss, who was on Crete serving at this point as part of 20th Battalion, 2nd Division, 2NZEF.

Alf wrote:
“At daybreak some bright spark found an abandoned British officers’ mess. Tinned peaches and cream were very welcome, although they didn’t really help an empty stomach that much. How we longed for a tasty sausage or two! We had not long finished when the air overhead became alive with Spandau and mortar fire.
Rangi Royal, a tall, dark Maori Battalion captain from the Fielding area, then stood up at the top of the ridge, held his revolver in the air and shouted, “Men of the 28th Battalion, fix bayonets and follow me.” The affect was amazing. We heard haka, loud enough to scare both friend and foe. Then everyone, not just the maori Battalion, followed him down from 42nd Street in a charge that pushed the Germans back 1000 yards. The Germans fired a little , then just took off. Quite a few were killed. I said to the platoon commander, “It’s not really a bayonet charge,” as everyone was firing at the fast retreating Germans and never gotthe chance to bayonet any of them. Royal’s status shot up amongst the whole expeditionary force after this battle.”

Rangi Royal was awarded the military cross for leading the charge.

Paul, elements of the Gurkhas served as part of the 2nd New Zealand Division and the new Zealand Corps in Italy, so the New Zealanders and Gurkhas made a formidable force together.

PeeDee, I suggest you read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haka

I have no idea what on earth you meant by “When the spoken word was established, stuff like the Haka was laughed at….be it right or wrong.”

The haka relies upon the spoken word as its most dominant part. Do you think they were silent haka before the English arrived, and the missionaries educated them how to speak??

[QUOTE=John Green;1816708

One history of the life of Erwin Rommel recorded that Rommel thought that the best soldiers the Afrika Corps came up against in the Westen Desert of North Africa were the New Zealanders.

John Green[/QUOTE]

Lucky he never came up against the Gurkhas then!:D

The bravest and most feared fighting men you would never wish to meet. Most British soilders serving or ex will agree with me. The enemy won’t because they will be dead!

Motto

कांथर हुनु भन्दा मर्नु राम्रो (Kaatar Hunnu Bhanda Marnu Ramro) (Better to die than to be a coward)

So why do they do a Haka for HM QE2 when she goes there?

Nuuumannn,

A good reponse. Measured and informative. I now know a bit more about the Kiwis than I did.

One history of the life of Erwin Rommel recorded that Rommel thought that the best soldiers the Afrika Corps came up against in the Westen Desert of North Africa were the New Zealanders.

John Green

Not quite. Might I add a few things. I still think doing the YMCA in response to the haka is the funniest thing suggested on this forum :D. Here is a little fact about the haka and a little about the complexities of New Zealand race relations – coming from someone who has, as my very English father-in-law states, “a touch of the tar brush”, which most would find offensive, but I don’t.

The haka is, as John states, a form of throwing down the gauntlet. It is, in essence a challenge and traditionally, both warring tribes would do a haka before going into battle and hacking each other to pieces. The fact that the All Blacks have adopted this is a nod to New Zealand’s native culture. This is very much a part of every New Zealander’s culture, whether they choose to accept it or not. Many choose not to as they have no Maori ancestry, but it is undeniably what makes modern New Zealand and all its foibles what it is.

Probably the most misunderstood aspect of Maori culture by both white New Zealanders and foreigners is that before the white folk appeared, the Maoris couldn’t stand each other and found any excuse for a fight. These were brutal.

Since “Pakeha” (literally, non Maori, not ‘white man’ as most New Zealanders think) have appeared in Aotearoa “Land of the long White Cloud”, “Maori” has come to mean the natives, which inhabited the islands. The correct term is “Tangata Maori”, which literally means “ordinary man”. When the natives were asked who they were, they replied “Tangata maori… bro” (:))

The problem in New Zealand is that race relations, not the best at times, will never change until non natives (11 percent of our population have native blood) accept that Maoris don’t like each other and most just want to be left to get on with life. This is why the Maori political party will never be unanimously supported by every Maori, because they hate each other more than they hate whites!

As New Zealanders, we are allowed to criticise Maori culture, but will staunchly defend it against foreigners doing same.

We do get a bit precious about the haka, no doubt, but that’s because we are New Zealanders. Don’t ask why, it’s a national identity thing. The ruling by the IRB is silly and unnecessary and I’m sure most New Zealanders would agree.

I still think Ashwarya Rai doing the haka is a brilliant idea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnKbSf60pyM&list=PLD54DB352CF1E2A20&index=2&feature=plpp_video

;):diablo:

Amazing, now I have poms trying to teach me my own culture and history, which i already know well… what next?

I give up, you all win. Bye bye.

Challenge declined then?

😀

Well, be carefull, the civilised part of your history and culture is Pommish.

The Haka is just an uncivilised and uneducated method of Gauntlet throwing. When the spoken word was established, stuff like the Haka was laughed at….be it right or wrong.
Keep the Haka by all all means please, but…seeing it is a challenge, please don’t be offeded if other nations rise to it with a very large middle finger. You may be World champs at Rugby, but we all saw the match and we all saw the French were better. As an Englishman, it cuts my throat to admit this.
We were just rubbish, that’s not the issue. And, seeing as the Mauri are now a minority race in both real life AND the Rugby team, why don’t you just sing along to the NZ national anthem like any other normal country would?