Brake Failure

I’ve been playing a lot with Tiger Moths in the past, the friends who owned them decided to install drum brakes and to add tailwheels, so the brake system check was added in the hour inspection list. I remember passing hours laying under the Tiger in order to have all the air out of the plant,with a relevant brake fluid drinking too 😉 but despite our careful checks we had in a couple of occasions a wheel braking more than the other or a ferod sticking to the drum with the understandable consequences.. We have the brake fluid tank inside the cockpit, so it’s not really hard to check, u just open it (carefully, so u can’t eat yr muffin while checking the oil 😉 )Our techie down at the hangar used to tell me that the best ways to spot a braking fluid leak in the walkaround are:
1) checking the tyre: if it looks “clean” or “semigloss” it might be an oil leakage in the brake area.
2) following with a finger the tube and checking yr finger: hydraulic fluids tend to follow the tubing lines when the plane is parked.
3) look for paint chipping around the wheel and wheel bay area: brake fluid is an incredible paint stripper!
All in all what happened to Janie is an inconvenience that unfortunately is not that rare.. Anybody can have a failure for any reason at any time, this happens even when driving yr car, it’s just a matter of bad luck sometimes. Of course careful and recurrent checks can minimalize the problem, but there are some troubles that can’t be predicted sometimes. A friend of mine, who’s attending the Italian Air Force Flight Academy, was making his first flying hours in the SF.260 and the instructors hammered them with all the emergency procedures. He had a tyre burst on landing and was able to manage it easily, but he said it was mostly due to the fact that there were no aeroplanes parked near to the runway. Accidents can be avoided with a careful airport managing, and above all with a serious attitude of the pilots, who must respects the ground indications, the ground control calls and always look around. This works well with military airports (and nonetheless they have accidents too), but in a civilian airport or airfield it can be difficult to be obtained. The best thing to do is thinking twice, and above all being sure to have enough room around u.

Cheers

Alex

Indeedy John. AAIB is another executive branch of the DfT totally apart from the CAA. AAIB reports are anonymous and provide value for the points you raise. AA as a commerical op should also be compiling safety incidents (however trivial) through their safety pilot and submitting them to the relevant authority. There’s value in this process which can ultimately spot a trend developing.

GASIL and CHIRP are also other good ways of getting anon detail across

Some even go as far as a MOR aiui!

If the CAA do act (wich is very rare) and prosecute, the AAIB findings are inadmissible in court (breaks a key point of law, can’t remember what right now)

Perhaps an enquiry to DH Support (in the case of the Chipmunk) Maybe there is a known or as yet unknown problem with the hydraulic brakes?
mmitch.

Ta Galdri! I tried copying it from the PDF earlier but lost interest.

I actually said “sometimes the most minor things” and I meant things like a spark plug being left out or loose and being discovered when the engine is being run up. I’m not trying to run anyone down (and I apologise if that’s how it came across) I’m just curious on how the process works, and at what point it becomes official.

Also, I get really irritated at the “women don’t know engineering” attitude that some blokes have – and when it’s a safety issue that is ignored for whatever reason that’s not something that I take lightly! 🙂 Maybe I’m lucky that I have worked with (and still do so) some very talented female engineers and sometimes forget that the old ways are still prevelent in the outside world.

Anyhow, I didn’t mean to step on any toes so sorry again!

JC

Janie,
In the link BlueRobin attached, there is this, among other things,

Definition of a Serious Incident …………………………..

– System failures, weather phenomena, operation outside the approved flight envelope or other occurrences which could have caused difficulties controlling the aircraft.

I would imagine that this is the part that John C is reffering to.

That link suggests to me that it should be reported and investigated.

Please quote me which line infers this.

Please also give an example of what you call “most minor things” with regards to the AAIB reports.

The maintenance guys are just fine. They are normal friendly folk. My only issue is my constant battle with trying to persuade men that they really should listen to what I am saying. Sadly, the only successful women I know are aggressive ones. I’ve tried to avoid being like that, but I can understand how they find it necessary to be so.

That link suggests to me that it should be reported and investigated.

So this leads to another of my numpty questions. “That Worst Day” has just happened, and one is standing by a few thousand quids worth of repairs, luckily unhhurt. What is the AAIB experience like? Are there insurance implications? I know that it’s probably embarrasing at best and the mickey is probably taken in the event of no harm, but surely the aim is to inform other aviators and support organisations of a problem in the hope that others may benefit, rather than impose sanctions.

I’m pretty sure that Janie’s maintenance people wouldn’t appreciate a call from the men of the ministry..

JC

Cheeky get Mog! 😮

Janie, this link will explain things further.

When the Jodel toasted itself, the thicko group leader said it shouldn’t be reported iirc “coz no-one was hurt”. This was after a fuel-leak and loss of power mid-air followed by a fire on the ground just after the pilot stopped and ran away. I had to stuff the above link under his nose. Fortunately the pilot had better sense …

Makes you think what goes unreported. I bet their are pilots out there who are no au fait runing an aircraft, particularly so with the legal systems out there and run scared just in case the big, bad regulator comes knocking.

It was just out of interest really – Your incident had potentially dangerous consequences and I wondered where the line is drawn. Surely the maintenance organisation should have sorted the problem out (didn’t you post about this? I seem to remember something..) the first time around.. In which case there is a process issue with them.

Scanning through the the AAIB bulletins over the years, it sometimes seems that the most minor things are reported. Does it depend on the class of aircraft?

Whatever, I do hope that you offer a slow and painful castration to those who are supposedly looking after your aircraft 🙂 As with your former group member, this will have an effect on the trustworthyness of their abilities..

JC
I’m not an aviator yet but I am an engineer.

So I just wonder how many people check their hydraulic level before flying.

Me Miss, me!

I was taught to do this on lesson 1 and have continued the procedure ever since.

Moggy

does one keep shtum and hope no one noticed…

Never.

I once got a call from a friend saying he had taxied our aircraft (not the Chipmunk) into a VASI (big lights by the side of the runway). He did the right thing in reporting the problem. However, in telling me the story, he said he hit the obstacle. The engine stopped. He got out, looked over the aeroplane and it looked perfectly OK, so he taxied back to the hangar. For a moment he just thought about putting the a/c away and not telling anyone.

Conclusion: One cannot be blamed for thinking like that. His mistake was in telling me that he thought like that. Could you trust a guy would allow someone to fly a potentially dangerous machine? Well I could trust him because he did own up. But it always left me wondering what other faults he may have ‘kept schtum’ about?

He left the group pretty quickly!

The fluid leaked out by the wheel. The reservoir was empty. Only the left brake failed.

I had reported failing brakes to the maintenance guys a couple of weeks previously, but they had chosen to ignore me. I just wonder if they would have paid attention had I been male? This is a recurring hurdle, I find.

There is no need to report this to the AAIB because there was no incident or accident. If there had been a collision with another object, whether it gets reported or not depends upon how serious the damage is to person and aircraft and also whether you are carrying a passenger. Perhaps someone with the correct info to hand can elaborate on that and the technical difference between ‘incident’ and ‘accident’.

Where did the fluid go? Leaked out or did it not get filled after maintenance?

Just out of interest loike.. 🙂

Do incidents such as this get reported to the AAIB or does one keep shtum and hope no one noticed…

JC

So I just wonder how many people check their hydraulic level before flying. I certainly was not taught to in any aircraft I’ve flown. That’s going to change now on.

Melv / Rob: You chaps are making me all embarrased. My aim in life is to keep all the people happy all the time. It’s not easy, but it’s fun trying. I’m sure I’ll get to visit you both next year.

I wouldn’t rely on Moggy’s help….I have on very good authority that he is a rogue of the highest order 😉

Brakes are a sod esp. if one goes and not the other!

The brakes on the Colt are operated by a sort of handle thing under the panel – probably not best suited to your inimitable flying-style BR :p

Moggy

You’ve got an audience waiting with baited breath for a reply!

To call it off before it’s got started would be silly. Did you want to call it off?
:diablo:

That’s not what you said last night . . . . .

(Happy Christmas, We will get together soon and drink coffee)

melv

I wouldn’t rely on Moggy’s help….I have on very good authority that he is a rogue of the highest order 😉

Brakes are a sod esp. if one goes and not the other!

Does that mean our affair is off?

You’ve got an audience waiting with baited breath for a reply!

To call it off before it’s got started would be silly. Did you want to call it off?
:diablo:

Just remember – if my brakes have failed, it’s going to be very difficult to stop!

Moderator!

I really would have love to joined you, but, firstly, the brakes are not yet fixed and secondly, N.Weald has a fly-in that day which I’ve already planned to meet folks there.

Does that mean our affair is off?

There is a New Year’s Day fly in at Popham if your brakes are working and the weather is good.

I really would have love to joined you, but, firstly, the brakes are not yet fixed and secondly, N.Weald has a fly-in that day which I’ve already planned to meet folks there.