Benazir Bhutto Dead

She certainly was not a brave women to return , what she did was acted on stupidity.

Nice postings Kev, we live in the so called affluent, white dominated East Anglia, the only Asians are the friendly, integrated Indians, Sri Lankans and Chinese who run the corner shops and take aways.
On the day of the funeral, we saw the handful of local Moslems standing outside their Islamic centre, which is a crumbling Victorian house in the town, they looked pretty fed up with events to me, but being in a minority, and the seemingly tolerant attitude to ethnic groups around here as they don’t pose a threat to ‘Britishness’, there’s probably no need for them to embrace radicalism.
A few years ago we took our stepson up north to spend New Years Eve in Keighley with some friends.
We came off the motorway in Bradford and not having been up north before, he couldn’t believe what he was seeing, he thought we’d landed in a different country, thats a reflection of what it’s like down here, the last bastion of real England as my old man used to call it.
I always wonder whether Benazir had some sort of death wish involving her hopes that her martydom would solve all the problems of East/West antagonism. I always felt that her return would end in tragedy, she was a very brave woman to go back to Pakistan and throw herself back into the political arena, it was doomed to failure, the extremists would always get her in the end. Now we are watching the self destruction of Kenya, I wonder what hope there is for the world, it just seems to get worse, mankind doesn’t seem to be able to learn it’s lessons from the past.
Perhaps you should move down here Kev 35, Braintree is comparitively cheap and DX is only 20 mins drive away, you can wander round there and think of times past, as old gits like me tend to do more often.

kev35,
your take on the British born Pakistanis is in some sort spot on. But let me give the reasons for this type of behavior, EDUCATION. The people who first moved to UK were not very well educated and thus follow a very crude understanding of the environment around them. Their children were indeed born in UK and joined the education institutes here but then u have to remember that half of the child’s education (behavioral and personality related) is from his home.
You can relate to it in a manner that two children of 10 yr of age, one having parents living together and the other having seen their parents going through an ugly divorce. Their personality would reflect the experiences they had.

So coming back to my points the integration of the Pakistanis in UK was therefore indeed on the NHS or legal aid level but not on a social level. So when they see their children going towards the social integration they have to print the same ideology which they had in their mind to keep their children away from social interaction.
This ideology is some times given a Religious color, some times given a cultural color and some times a racist color. But eventually the next generation would remember the divide even lesser and as time progresses the integration would go towards both social and economical one.
I hope all this made any sense
Cheers

Tragic indeed! 🙁

Benazir Bhutto was murdered because she was anti Taliban and not for being a woman (which didn’t help either). If anyone was able to pull it off, then it’s likely was the Pakistani secret service ISI, which created the Taliban in the first place. There is a small chance of a civil war, which is scary because a fanatic side may emerge as the winner and have nukes in there posession.:eek:

Kev35,
Do you by any chance live in the vicinity of Bradford? 😮

I actually see where you are coming from.I have heard similar stories from others (who share the same demographics). It’s really puzzling for me being in US and seeing exact opposite of that in local muslim community.

But i tend to disagree with the notion of complete islamization . It would take more than petty criminal behaviour to “take over” a country 😀

Moderator Message

Sealordlawrence,

Your most recent posting (now deleted) contained a clear and undeniable personal insult aimed at another member and, as such, is in breach of item 5 of the Code of Conduct. (see above)

As a regular forum user you are perfectly aware that this is unacceptable, so please consider this posting to be a formal public warning.

GA

Farooq.

My thoughts?

Well, as I see it, there is a definite radicalisation amongst the Muslim youth in the area in which I live. Most of their families came from one small area of Kashmir in the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s so most of the young men who are causing problems were in fact born here and are British Citizens. They are British by birth, but the fact is that they are only British when it suits them, for instance, when they are collecting their benefits, or using the NHS, or requiring Legal Aid. The rest of the time they are disaffected.

Being disaffected is not new, it happens to all ethnic groups and indeed to groups within those ethnicities. The problem we have here is that this disaffected section of the younger generation are very heavily criminalised. I know from personal experience that many have criminal records, most of which are drug and violence related. Now, in an atmosphere such as this, we see a rise in the more radical teachings within the Muslim Community. The full dress robes were rare but now more and more women are wearing this dress. One might, stupidly, have thought that integration of all the Communities would have been the wider goal. This is in fact the opposite among Muslims in the area in which I live.

Muslim families are becoming ever more radicalised as evidenced by the numbers of beatings and stabbings within that Community, usually a result of a woman rejecting a proposed marriage partner or a man becoming involved with a woman promised to another. We see no ‘love’ marriages within that Community. What we do see is men and women forced into marriages where the woman is, as Arthur suggested, nothing more than a sperm recepticle who is sentenced to a lifetime of bringing up child after child. Meanwhile, the husbands are regularly seen entertaining their ‘white’ girlfriends.

It is against this background of events in which people are moved to act outside any accepted or reasonable behaviour, that we find celebrations over the death of a political opponent. With the continued radicalisation process and the fact that guns are becoming ever more easily available, I can only foresee a future in which those who feel disaffected will continue to become ever more violent.

Britain a Muslim State? Give it two hundred years and I think it might well be.

Regards,

kev35

A tragic loss for a nation in particular and for the world in general. At this time of uncertainity where militants were reacting strongly in Pakistan this was just the thing which should have been avoided at all cost. Unfortunately evil got what he wanted and a leader which beleive in democracy is no more.
The next biggest injustice could be that if there is no official explaination regarding the circumstances in which she died. Looking at the quick clean up of the site and no post martum i think we are heading for yet another leader dead under mysterious circumstances.
PS: She was shot i know but which callibre bullet was used and was it a snipper hit or the mad man shot her and blew herself up. The truth should be known to everyone.

An absolute tragedy.

But expected nonetheless, it was either Sharif to go first or Bhutto.

a sad day for democracy.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7161590.stm

Very sad ending

Terrible news.
The Alquida guys knew benazir was about to win the elections. The poll results were also indicating that the islamic parties were going to get hammered at the polls. This act will delay the election process.
This has also deprived pakistan of a popular leader and now all eyes will be on the 2nd most popular leader (nawaz)to lead the fight. Im sure he is Alquada’s next target so lets hope he is more sensible then benazirr and doesnt stick his neck out of a bullet proof vehicle. What a sad loss and such a waste.

No doubt that this is an absolute tragedy.

I am afraid the main reason the West interprets this as a tragedy is because a twice elected female premier of a formerly democratic islamic nation has been murdered.

But that just gives wonderful excuses to oversimplify this tragedy. And doing that is easy, considering most Western people vaguely are aware of the existance of Pakistan and Islam and women and other incomprehensible entities. But that’s what they will judge their opinions on.

I know I am one of those, and drunk to boot. Yeah, this post is probably rubbish.

There could be plenty of excuses for the assasin, one maybe more ‘acceptable’ than another.
A disgusting militant islamofascist of the Al Quada-species thinking women are mere homebound sperm receptacles?
An overzealous yet moderately muslem Musharraf supporter?
An overzealoud yet moderately muslem Sharif supporter?
A total loon?
A patsy for some sort of conspiracy group (of course it’s the Mossad and CIA and Freemasons and Bildenbergs alltogether)?
A person who felt her previous terms as Premier were overshadowed by the corruption in her government?

?

This political murder (conveniently ignoring the 150-something people who died previously as collateral damage) definately sets back Pakistan a whole lot in becoming a reliable, trustworthy, dependable nation in the international scene. After all, a democracy (or even a nation state) only functions if a nations law and order apparatus are able to maintain at least protection to the partakers of the democratic (or governmental)* process.

Today Pakistan only gave itself a longer way to come.

* = yeah, I know, the Dutch failed there as well. But I think the Netherlands should become a Flemish colony anyway.

sealordlawrence and I are not often known to agree on things but one has to think he is right in the words he has chosen to write above.

Tonight, at 7PM in the district in which I live, a large multicultural town in the Midlands of England, we were treated to the unpalatable spectacle of Asian youths celebrating Benazir Bhutto’s death by dancing, cheering and the letting off of a large number of fireworks. These Asian youths were, in the main, born in this Country and are British Passport holders. With this mindset apparently becoming ever more popular, I think we have no choice other than to fear for the future.

Regards,

kev35

Kev35,
A large number of Pakistani ex-pats support Nawaz Shareef and that could have been one reason for reprehensible act. In 1989 when General Zia-ul-Haq died and Benezir came back to Pakistan her supporters were equally delirious in celebrating his death. I know it’s cruel but not sure how much it has to do with Islam which is what Sealordlawrence was refering to. (And from my repeated interaction with him and what he posts, it is my understanding that he likes to refer to the entire religion evil and muslims as following that evil idealogy). Would like to know what are your thoughts.

All true, once again an evil and violent ideology has unleashed its hate towards civilisation and resorted to murder.:mad:

sealordlawrence and I are not often known to agree on things but one has to think he is right in the words he has chosen to write above.

Tonight, at 7PM in the district in which I live, a large multicultural town in the Midlands of England, we were treated to the unpalatable spectacle of Asian youths celebrating Benazir Bhutto’s death by dancing, cheering and the letting off of a large number of fireworks. These Asian youths were, in the main, born in this Country and are British Passport holders. With this mindset apparently becoming ever more popular, I think we have no choice other than to fear for the future.

Regards,

kev35

Guys,
There is no doubt in my mind that it is a tragic end for Benezir Bhutto (just like most of her family i.e. father and two brothers), but lets not cloud and mix the reality of Benezir Bhutto the leader and her misrule with the tragic end she met (totally condemnable).

Some comments about how bad her “loss” is for Pakistan,women and democracy do not stand upto even slightest amount of scrutiny. I do not wish to start on many things that i know not just from highly artificial BBC and CNN interviews with Benezir. I think it would be inappropriate for me to write them down here given what has just happened.

On the topic, though it does show how great the menace has become. I wish she had been a little less careless with the way she choose to conduct her campaign specially after the loss of 140 lives on the day one of her arrival. This has caused severe confusion and ripples are being felt at international level.

Bad day for democracy
Bad day for women
Bad day for Pakistan

Good for radicals. I wonder why Alqaeda hasn´t been rooten from this planet so far 😡

Unfortunately, I expected this to happen.

All true, once again an evil and violent ideology has unleashed its hate towards civilisation and resorted to murder.:mad:

Bad day for democracy
Bad day for women
Bad day for Pakistan

Good for radicals. I wonder why Alqaeda hasn´t been rooten from this planet so far 😡

Unfortunately, I expected this to happen.

Can i add, Its a bad day for the world.
Sad that this has happened and sadder to think what could happen next.

Bad day for democracy
Bad day for women
Bad day for Pakistan

Good for radicals. I wonder why Alqaeda hasn´t been rooten from this planet so far 😡

Unfortunately, I expected this to happen.

Moderator Message

Taking Ren Frew’s comments on board, this seems an opportune time to remind everyone of item 5 from the Code of Conduct set by the owners of this site:

“5) Posts containing swearwords or insults whether aimed at individuals or aimed indiscriminately at nations, ethnic groups, gender, religions and/or cultures will be edited or deleted. Persistent or serious offenders will be banned.”

Let’s all bear this in mind as we discuss the untimely and tragic death of Ms Bhutto.

Thanks

GA

I was going to start a thread on this earlier, but predicting the usual flame-fest whenever political regimes are discussed, decided not to bother. I’ve made my feelings known elsewhere…