Glasgow Airport Incident

The humanity also means that pictures are beamed around the world of these guys being rescued . I cannot imagine a series of events happening in Afghanistan or Iraq! Now imagine for a second if the pictures showed people standing watching while they burnt – that would inflame opinion out there even more. Hearts and minds should be what this is all about – we cannot hope to stop this unless we can engage the radicals and indeed the communities they live in to persuade their youth against this.

This is quite an interesting one. On the one hand we have “compassion & humanity” shown rescuing these guys, great from our point of view, but can you imagine the Radical point of view? Getting the right hump at not being allowed to die thats for sure. No matter what we do it will be used against us. Im actually dreading the burnt guy dying, ok hes bad guy, doesnt really matter is one point of view, however, his bosses could say we did it. And its that bit that worries me as no matter what is said they will ram it into their sides heads that we did it.

Now then, Hearts and minds, I quite agree with you there, but all the time both the US & UK forces keep doing illegal acts against suspects & innocents we’ve got no chance. Ok the Iraqi’s havent been very friendly towards prisoners but we can not stoop to their level. Even more so as we are meant to be civilised nations. My father is an ex soldier of 41 yrs service, Regular, TA & Cadets and is appalled by what is going on out there, even more so when presently serving officers he taught and I grew up with. One of whom has been quoted in several newspapers dropping the MOD right in the cart.

Bex

The humanity also means that pictures are beamed around the world of these guys being rescued . I cannot imagine a series of events happening in Afghanistan or Iraq! Now imagine for a second if the pictures showed people standing watching while they burnt – that would inflame opinion out there even more. Hearts and minds should be what this is all about – we cannot hope to stop this unless we can engage the radicals and indeed the communities they live in to persuade their youth against this.

Bex – If you break it down into simple events. A Jeep has crashed in front of you – the occupants are on fire but you can see a way of getting them out
Do you act first dragging them out or do you consider that they might be Muslim terrorists and leave them to burn . Or is it option three – they are Muslim citizens in a car on fire who might or might not be terrorists.
It’s very hard to stand and watch someone burn without your humanity making you do something .

As for the mindset of the bombers in the U.K . Examine the U.S wanting to hit back after Pearl Harbour by bombing Tokyo . The raid might have achieved little in military terms but it was great for moral back home.

Now imagine a Iraqi doctor who resents the occupation or Christian troops in his country or even is a devout Muslim radical who wishes to rid his country
of any other religion. He can become an anonymous car bomber at home or come to Europe and cause deaths in the land of what he considers the infidel. He might get more fame – he might even inspire more to his cause – or he might sway public opinion in the West further against the occupation.

Wars can be lost through public opinion – i.e the U.S in Vietnam and the public clamour back home to bring the troops home – strike in the West like these terrorists do and they bring the war home to the invaders.

We live in an age where censorship is very hard and a terrorists deeds can be famous in seconds on the Internet – don’t underestimate how savvy the radicals are at exploting terrorism.

David, from what Ive seen on the news, it has been stated that these guys were pretty obviously “bad guys”. Also from my own experiences I could pretty much be certain of an attack compared to an RTA. However, I do agree with what you are saying, actions at that precise time were based on the experience on those on the ground at that time, and thats all that matters. But, also Id get them out regardless if I could, that little thing called common sense and decency kicks in there.

Propaganda is an amazing weapon, and I reckon these guys are winning that one, certainly just on a numbers game alone. The British are now suffering what the USA suffered with Vietnam, even the Falklands had excellent press censorship, but not now 😡 Bex

Bex – If you break it down into simple events. A Jeep has crashed in front of you – the occupants are on fire but you can see a way of getting them out
Do you act first dragging them out or do you consider that they might be Muslim terrorists and leave them to burn . Or is it option three – they are Muslim citizens in a car on fire who might or might not be terrorists.
It’s very hard to stand and watch someone burn without your humanity making you do something .

As for the mindset of the bombers in the U.K . Examine the U.S wanting to hit back after Pearl Harbour by bombing Tokyo . The raid might have achieved little in military terms but it was great for moral back home.

Now imagine a Iraqi doctor who resents the occupation or Christian troops in his country or even is a devout Muslim radical who wishes to rid his country
of any other religion. He can become an anonymous car bomber at home or come to Europe and cause deaths in the land of what he considers the infidel. He might get more fame – he might even inspire more to his cause – or he might sway public opinion in the West further against the occupation.

Wars can be lost through public opinion – i.e the U.S in Vietnam and the public clamour back home to bring the troops home – strike in the West like these terrorists do and they bring the war home to the invaders.

We live in an age where censorship is very hard and a terrorists deeds can be famous in seconds on the Internet – don’t underestimate how savvy the radicals are at exploting terrorism.

Bex.

As far as I know Mengele was a Doctor. The point I was clumsily trying to make was that the experiments he undertook were hardly likely to win him a Nobel Prize for medicine.

Regards,

kev35

Lets face it, no matter which way one looks at it, he was a bit on the crazy side. Doctor or no doctor, too be honest, he was an insult to the medical proffession, a bit like the mob arrested over the last few days. Bex

Bex.

As far as I know Mengele was a Doctor. The point I was clumsily trying to make was that the experiments he undertook were hardly likely to win him a Nobel Prize for medicine.

Regards,

kev35

We could in fact use a lot of history to form analagies, Philby & Gordievsky to name but two. Ok yes I know they were spies but can put our hands on our hearts and say for certain that their knowledge didnt cause deaths?

Kev, thanks for that bit, I was not aware that Mengele was not a doctor in the first place. Crippen, yes he killed for pleasure, Shipman, well as far as we are aware it was for financial gain but there maybe a possibility of other motives in his case?

Yes, we have invaded Iraq & Afghanistan, and as patriotic as I am I never thought Id say this, but it wasnt the best move we’ve ever made, however as we all know this extremism has been going for decades. Now then folks what are we missing, what is causing born and bred Britains & persons employed in the health service blowing themselves up in the name of their religion?

Apart from the odd c0ck up the IRA never went this far, ok they did have an idiot that blew himself up on a bus but that was an accident, not deliberate, and theirs was under the auspices of a “Holy War” hiding behind religion, and lets be honest, in most cases, they did have the “Decency” to give us a few minutes warning (my dad did 7 tours of Belfast so I have atleast 2nd hand knowledge and he had a lucky escape in 74)

So finally, apart from supporting the USA & Israel, invading other countries unjustly why, are we (the UK) constantly being targetted along with other European Countries, parts of Australasia, Malaysia BUT all is quiet in the USA, or has no one else noticed this? Since 9/11, the USA has been VERY quiet. Bex

David.

Interesting point there. And one which I suppose would have been equivalent to the Nazis invading England, or more correctly, Britain. Resistance is one thing, but what we have is the exportation of that resistance. Were these Doctors radicalised as students in Iraq? Or, in a more sinister sense, have they become radicalised since they moved to the UK? You are talking about resistance but what these radical Muslims are doing goes way beyond that. The London bombers were British, born and raised here, educated here. How does their suicide in London offer resistance to the ‘occupation’ in Iraq? How does any of it make any sense at all when Muslim fights Muslim because they are of a slightly different belief system? Radical Islam is seeking something much more fundamental than a free Iraq and Afghanistan.

Lance.

Dr. Crippen killed for personal pleasure didn’t he? While Mengele was not, at least after his introduction to Nazism, a Doctor at all but rather an experimenter in torture in all its forms.

Regards,

kev35

Kev – There are two ways to look at this. Firstly you mention ‘martyrdom’ – to achieve that might seem to them to be enough of a justification to do what they do . The offerings of eternal life or indeed going into a land of pleasure is something that a few religions peddle and it seems to recruit both
the easily influenced and the very intelectural. For a number of people this life is either not pleasurable enough or on the other hand not long enough
and people will pursue this.
The second way to consider it is if we were invaded and occupied by Iraq. Would we consider it justified and whilst certain members of the population would abide by the occupying forces – others would not.
There were people in Iraq happy with their lot – they have now seen their standard of life dramatically change and their leaders hanged.

For your first point David, I can see that one and why it would appeal. I think CHancer wondered in his post why we’d let the burning driver live, while I agree with him in theory, let the toerag burn, you explain the guys possible thinking in a way I hadnt thought of.

Point 2, well I would in all honesty fit into the “u invaded, I aint happy” catergary, and yes theres a fair few in Iraq that have seen their lives take a big tumble with the removal of Saddam Hussein and his “Government” Bex

Kev – There are two ways to look at this. Firstly you mention ‘martyrdom’ – to achieve that might seem to them to be enough of a justification to do what they do . The offerings of eternal life or indeed going into a land of pleasure is something that a few religions peddle and it seems to recruit both
the easily influenced and the very intelectural. For a number of people this life is either not pleasurable enough or on the other hand not long enough
and people will pursue this.
The second way to consider it is if we were invaded and occupied by Iraq. Would we consider it justified and whilst certain members of the population would abide by the occupying forces – others would not.
There were people in Iraq happy with their lot – they have now seen their standard of life dramatically change and their leaders hanged.

Kev & Grey Area,

Oh u gents are quick I have to admit!!! Ok, short version, my dear little mother used to be an A&E Nurse at a South London Hospital so every morning when she came home dad & I were regaled with the previous nights exploits, as a kid u can imagine how much I enjoyed this before school…. NOT. Although there was this Chinease Chappy with an interesting name (cough) I digress:

Now then gents, I agree with the names presented thus far, although, I do have a question relating to the following:

Dr’s: Mengele, Crippen & Shipman were not at the “start” of their careers like the young boys & girls we have incarcerated so slightly different circumstances wouldnt u both agree?

Beverly Allitt, I concur was / is mentally ill though technically doesnt fit in here, however my thoughts do agree with u Kev :diablo: . Bex

…. and let’s not forget Dr Crippen or the egregious Dr Mengele.

Lance.

Blood pressure’s fine thanks.

I was for a number of years, a nurse working in a number of specialities in a large hospital. It is possibly thought of as ‘effect’ when people on programmes like Casualty, Holby and ER et al talk about junior Doctors ‘killing a few’ when they first qualify, but it is true. From med school to the wards is one hell of a learning curve and misdiagnoses are made and the wrong treatment carried out. Often the pride of a junior will not allow them to seek help from their seniors until actively encouraged by the nursing staff.

However, I digress. While the Hippocratic Oath is not universally appreciated, and as Lance says, is not always considered by newly qualifying Doctors, perhaps that may be more of a symptom of the litiginous society in which we now live.

The point remains that one would expect a person to join the medical profession in order to help rather than to harm. There are however precedents. Dr. Harold Shipman murdered, at least in part, for financial gain. Beverley Allitt because of a serious mental illness. I suppose really it is unsurprising that some Doctors might be inclined to murder for a cause.

Regards,

kev35

It certainly is interesting that people that are employed in an occupation that helps people are capable of becomming suicide bombers. I can not comprehend what is going through these peoples minds, I might just be a bit strange but if I was a medical genious like one of these guys is supposed to be I would keep my nose out of politics and religious matters but hey thats me.

Kev raised a very interesting question “What is the mindset that allows these people to get married and bring children into the world only to blow themselves up and achieve ‘martyrdom’?” This certainly does make one wonder as what on earth is going on inside those heads.

Grey Area raised an important note, and he is most correct by stating that No one should need an oath to prevent planning harm to others. The scary thing is the opposite actually applies, oaths are taken to plan harm. Bex

The “Hippocratic Oath” is far from universal and is not in any way legally binding.

These days, few newly-qualified doctors swear the “classic” oath and many take no oath at all.

For the sake of Kev’s blood pressure, I’d like to point out that I mention this for information only.

No-one should need an oath to prevent them planning to do harm to others.

It is to be hoped they were more successful in their role as Doctors than as terrorists.

One of the tenets of the Hippocratic Oath is ‘to do no harm’ but I think that only applies when they are working as Doctors and not to any extracurricular activities.

Seriously though, it is difficult to understand what is going on in their minds. For instance, the Doctor who qualified in Baghdad. Would it not be expected that he would be more useful among his own people working in hospitals there? Or is it that he wished to take advantage of the NHS staff shortage and gain further qualifications, more money and a better way of life? Or had he already been radicalised with the idea that the medical profession in the UK would provide him with access to the Country, a secure employment in which he is unlikely to have been suspected and therefore the perfect opportunity to act as a ‘sleeper’ until told either by his masters or his conscience that it was time to blow himself up? (Not forgetting to take as many infidels as possible with him.)

What is the mindset that allows these people to get married and bring children into the world only to blow themselves up and achieve ‘martyrdom’? The London bombings of two years ago. Yes, they killed innocent people, infidels, but what has that achieved overall for the cause of radical Islam? Muslims have not benefited from that perceived sacrifice.

Regards,

kev35

What I find interesting is that this group are all from the medical proffession. The NHS is so understaffed that we employ foreighn medics and what happens they try to blow us up. Now what happened to the “Hypercratic Oath” Or doesnt that apply anymore? Bex

The moderates do talk and are stepping up, but you see the problem with our media is they prefer giving airtime to controversial figures, this really does not help. If these people who talk out extreme views were cut out and not given the time of day it may limit other people following them. And yes its definatly high time the west if it really does believe in freedom and democrasy start to push these ideals into countries they have chummy chummy relations with. When I say this I mean stop guaranteeing security of arab royals in return for oil and other financial gains.

When you prop up dictators, royals and other elite you get regimes like the one in Iran come about, you get Saddams born and you get countless other repressive regimes. People in the Muslim world want a voice if they get one I think this would eleviate allot of their greviences and kill the terrorist recruiting grounds that alqueda and other groups feed off. What the west continues to do however is interfere in the affairs of muslim countrys this interference is antagonizing people and is giving rise to extremism.

The problem is that cutting them off does not work. Syria and Iraq prior to 2003 as well as Afghanistan under the Taliban all managed/manage to maintain brutal dictatorial regimes without western support.

No you didnt, I brought up an issue and you pointed out that it was more wide spread- it is still a feature of Islamic society even if it is also a feature of other societys.

Sealord,

The whole point was that murdering a rape victim is not part of islamic jurisprudence.
These kinds of sick things do happen alot in that part of the world and i agree with you.

I agree entirely (i am also a regular reader of the economist 😉 ), there is one further point I would make though and that is that one has to be careful that such democratic institutions are not used for the imposing of extreme Sharia law. For instance there was a case in Iran where a young girl was executed for being sexually abused by her father and others. This is exactly the sort of thing that needs to be prevented. Indeed I would say that this is why Turkey is (at least up to now) such a good example, the secular nature of the state, and to an extent society as well, ensures that what one could call western values (although I prefer to call them modern liberal values) are upheld.

this is true… however i think it needs to be stated that the ideal type of democracy has as cornerstones (in my opinion) universal suffrage (which is a major step and this would involve more than just a political change as social attitudes would also need to be adjusted, although there is movement towards this direction, even though very very slow) and secondly the protection of minority rights (think about the moors in spain who co-existed peacefully with the jews and christians and respected their way of life, perfectly possible within islam it would seem)… if these two conditions were met, i think we wouldn’t have as much of those problems you mentioned above…

and finally, cultures cannot be changed over night… we (the west) didn’t get it all right from the very beginning but it took some time to adjust… maybe these islamist parties are just a part of the course in the islamic world… and we can’t force a giant leap from their way of life now into our way of life, which took hundreds of painful years and mistakes to get to… let’s not forget only 150 years ago, blacks weren’t treated as human beings let alone allowed to be treated as equal citizens and women weren’t given a say in their governance and they still aren’t in some more very personal cases (abortion)…