Danish cartoons – attack on Islam or free speech?

I think that is a very good note on which to draw this thread to a close.

Moggy

Seems its the case mate. I wonder who is crying wolf here may be its me may be its you people. Thats for sure that only time can tell. You have my admiration for choosing not to continue into the discussion anymore. I guess i was thinking of the same for quite sometime but may be for the sake of it was in the discussion.
I like to put it to end by a little conclusion on my part that from all the discussion it seems (leaving the part were both parties got personnel) we as muslim need to understand the working of western culture and thus be more realistic in terms of whom to blame in case of any problem. As part of western culture they seem to have to figure what aspirations can drive a muslim to the edge so that to the very fact that he is ready to give his life? Call it brain washing call it religious fanatics but seriously life is precious weather its a muslim, jew, christian or anyother human being?? Y should one give it away so cheaply? must b a driving force.
IF WE TRY WE CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE AND DIFFERENCE SHALL BE MADE IN TIMES TO COME.

I didn’t see what A-2-S posted that a Moderator deemed should be removed, but I can get a pretty good idea from the content of Grey Area’s rebuke. Isn’t it strange, A-2-S wanted me moderated a few days ago and was told it was not warranted. Yet it is he who needs to be censured. Is this typical? In forums as in real life? Someone does not share the same world view as A-2-S so he instantly makes personal attacks on them?

Obviously this is NOT the attitude shared by most people of the Muslim Faith who do believe in peace and tolerance. However, perhaps it is the attitude nurtured by those with extremist and fundamentalist beliefs?

I won’t engage any more in this battle of wits with A-2-S as he so obviously comes into this discussion unarmed.

Regards,

kev35

Please remember that negative personal comments about members who do not share your own view of the world are not appropriate to these Forums.

Anyone who cannot disagree with someone else without insulting, attacking them or questioning their sanity should probably be expressing their opinions elsewhere.

Thanks

GA

Lame arguments

A-2-S

Its single avowed political intent is the eradication of another Country and the destruction of its people. That is tantamount to a declaration of war.

kev35

I am afraid but same policy can be interpretted for USA as seen before in Afghanistan now in Iraq in future may b Iran may b Syria may b Pakistan who knowz i wonder is that democracy?
As alwayz your hiding behind self created assumptions. I put forward to you clear evidences regarding british behavior and yet you still dont feel like expecting all that coz i guess you dont expect captures of USA and Brition to act in this inhuman way but feel the severe temptation to raise your voice against a person who is voicing his anger.

I thought Al-Zawhari’s speech released today was quite enlightening.

And where did i said that he is the representative of muslim world?

I thought Al-Zawhari’s speech released today was quite enlightening. Calls of boycott, calls of violence against several nations and support for a political party which supports violence against Israel and refuses to recognize various accords signed in the last fifteen years.
This leaves me wondering who is becoming the crusaders all of a sudden!

A-2-S

Hamas is the democratically elected Government of Palestine. It is a Muslim Nation. Its single avowed political intent is the eradication of another Country and the destruction of its people. That is tantamount to a declaration of war. Is that the ideal that you and all Muslims espouse too? How much more Religiously and racially motivated can one be?

Regards,

kev35

There, questions answered. I will deal with your earlier diatribe when I have more time.

Umm well atleast i get to know what kind of a man i am dealing with from the one sided answers i got, no surprise though.

Which Politician? Which Country? Please elucidate with evidence and sources.

President in his address where he announced the attack on Afghanistan specifically used the word Crusade to define the war. But i guess you were not listening perhaps at the time.

Have you seen British people on the streets threatening Muslims with violence because of their Religion? No, but an element of the Muslim community have publicly threatened British people.

Yes the two british special ops personel disguised in Arab outfit were caught by Iraqi official authorities after they shot dead one police officer. As they were detained in the Prision for further action the british army attacked the compound and leveled one side of the prision to secure the two gentleman. Do i need to mention the fair play british force played and is playing in Abu Ghraib prison regarding the treatment of prisoners. Yes i can see the Bristish urgue to play fair. Man you must be really blind to say all that when the reality is infront of you.
And still if your the type which want to see evidence to believe something here u go http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/12/AR2006021200166.html/ Hurry for the high values the British bring to the world around….

“Do you condemn Israel act of seizing the money of Palestines democratically elected Gov?”

No. If a Democratically elected Government has money to spare, perhaps they should consider the use of said money to provide healthcare and education for their citizens rather than buying them guns?

Man do u even have the slightest idea of wht your saying, a democratic gov means it represent the people and thus is free in actions to perform in what ever manner they seek. If i say USA has the highest military budget and spending billions in war in Afghanistan and Iraq when in their own home people effected by Katrina (the storm) are helpless and no benefits are available to them to recover from what is lost????
Doesnt your logic suggest that USA should pull back from the war and concentrate the money over in its own problems???? But then that is USA it has the rite to do that but Palestines Gov which needs the money to pay for the salaries of the staff and other goods of use have its money blocked coz they will buy guns??? WHAT a joke?? Give proof for this ???

A-2-S, I got two questions, so I can understand.. Because there is much hatred spread around and I don’t seem to know what exactly does the other side want.

Thanks man for their is a reasonable try to find out the problem cause here. I respect this effort and will hope may be we can get the message across.

Question 1:
What exactly should the Danish newspaper after the unfortunate joke do, so that Muslims are satisfied? IIRC, they have apologized but this does not seem enough.. What more do you feel they should do, what are your expectations in this case?
Question 2:
What exactly should be done so that Muslims are generally satisfied so that reasons for extremism and terrorism vanish? Israeli land returned to Palestine? Apologies for Crusades from 12th century? Is that enough? Or much more is required? You can write it as extensively as you want..

Man if you have gone through my earlier posts regarding the reason for the protests in which i mentioned that most part of the act is done to show their frustration against their own rulers as a good part of the rulers in muslim countries dont represent their people. Nyways ill try my best to give the answer to your questions
As per Question 1 is concerned you firstly need to know the sensitivity regarding the incident. According to the setup we have in most of the muslim world the Gov or the Ruler is responsible for what happens from that world. Like for instance anything will happen in israel and Hamas will be held responsible similar is the understanding regarding the Denmark so that is y an apology from the danish gov was asked. I guess most of the people will be content to the fact that the Danish Gov will apologize for this event and ensure that such incident wont prevail in times to come.
As per question 2 is concerned man the root cause for all the conflicts if resolved will make the world a better place. Palestine if resolved in accordance with the wishes of Palestine people ?? well the muslim world is happy. Kashmir if resolved as per the wishes of the Kashmir people well Muslim world is happy. You bomb a muslim country and then expect why muslims are getting extermist and doing such acts? well the point is in muslim world at grass root level their is not concept of Nationalism rather Religion is the binding idendity. The Gov of the muslim world will introduce the concept of country but in peoples mind all muslims any where form a single entity just like an EU. its not effective as compared to that but only due to the reasons of the Gov. So all this is said to show you the internal strugle within the world which causes these outbursts against the west because mostly the WEST and USA is seen to support the Gov and not the people. So when the people see two enemies one their Gov and other those supporting them.
Ideally whats in the past is done and should not be mentioned. For peace in future i think we must try minimize the influence of the WEST and Europe on the Muslim countries and let them try to figure out a way to solve the problems within (i have already mentioned solving some land disputes with help of all nations).
I hope may be an idealistic view but may the representing the aspirations of a majority of people in muslim world. Some of it is based on reality and some of it on wishful thinking. How much will you agree to this ill like to know. Thanks n Regards Flex

Define Act of Terror? If a palestiniane throwing stones at a armed personnel carrier after they have leveled his home is an act of terrorrism then i dont condemn it

Your example can hardly be defined as “terrorism.” Suicide bombings or other types of deliberate attacks on civilian targets, however…

That being said, I’m not taking sides in that particular conflict. Although I think Israel shares a substantial part of it, I also think that the responsibility is mutual in many ways. There is no black or white.

Too general term please give details regarding wht you call as inciting religious hatred?

You can refer to posts no. 78 and 80 in this thread. I think it has something to do with an organisation called Hizb-ur-Tahrir.

Afghanistan where muslims are being killed just for fc*kN oil and resources

That doesn’t sound very credible to me.

if EU can come up with a joint declaration or a stand regarding any of its member country then whts wrong with the muslim world to practice the same?

Again you use the term “Muslim world” as if it were homogeneous. You of all people on this forum should know that it isn’t.

Would Muslim nations apologise for the reign of terror inflicted by the Mad Caliph Al-Hakim? Or perhaps for the Ottoman invasions of Europe?

I will be dealing with those later.. First I want to know, what do Muslims really want.. Because I am not entirely sure whether they know it at all.. But if I will be presented a clear list of their demands and expectations, I might change my mind on this..

Apologies for Crusades from 12th century?

Would Muslim nations apologise for the reign of terror inflicted by the Mad Caliph Al-Hakim? Or perhaps for the Ottoman invasions of Europe?

A-2-S, I got two questions, so I can understand.. Because there is much hatred spread around and I don’t seem to know what exactly does the other side want.

Question 1:
What exactly should the Danish newspaper after the unfortunate joke do, so that Muslims are satisfied? IIRC, they have apologized but this does not seem enough.. What more do you feel they should do, what are your expectations in this case?

Question 2:
What exactly should be done so that Muslims are generally satisfied so that reasons for extremism and terrorism vanish? Israeli land returned to Palestine? Apologies for Crusades from 12th century? Is that enough? Or much more is required? You can write it as extensively as you want..

Thanks for your response
Respect.. Flex

“Will you publicly condemn all acts of terror committed against Muslims?”

How do you define act of terror? If you are referring to Iraq and military actions in which coalition forces defend themselves from extremist insurgents, then, no, I won’t. Remember, insurgents are killing hundreds of Iraqi Muslims every week and now differing factions of the same Religion are fighting each other.

“Will you publicly condemn a politition calling for CRUSADE against Muslim countries?”

Which Politician? Which Country? Please elucidate with evidence and sources.

“Will you publicly condemn the burning down homes of innocent muslims?”

Here in the UK I’ve never felt the urge to protest against Muslims or to burn down their homes. Therefore there is nothing to condemn. Have you seen British people on the streets threatening Muslims with violence because of their Religion? No, but an element of the Muslim community have publicly threatened British people. Have you forgotten the London Bombings? The families of the victims haven’t.

“Do you condemn Israel act of seizing the money of Palestines democratically elected Gov?”

No. If a Democratically elected Government has money to spare, perhaps they should consider the use of said money to provide healthcare and education for their citizens rather than buying them guns?

“Will you publicly condemn all acts of incitement against the Muslim Faith?”

Evidence of incitement against the Muslim Faith? Try looking somewhere other than Al Jazeera.

There, questions answered. I will deal with your earlier diatribe when I have more time.

Regards,

kev35

okay Kev

Simple questions, no debate, just give honest straightforward answers.

Will you publicly condemn all acts of terror committed against Muslims?

Will you publicly condemn a politition calling for CRUSADE against Muslim countries?

Will you publicly condemn the burning down homes of innocent muslims?

Do you condemn Israel act of seizing the money of Palestines democratically elected Gov?

Will you publicly condemn all acts of incitement against the Muslim Faith?

A-2-S

Simple questions, no debate, just give honest straightforward answers.

Will you publicly condemn all acts of terror committed by those of Muslim Faith?

Define Act of Terror? If a palestiniane throwing stones at a armed personnel carrier after they have leveled his home is an act of terrorrism then i dont condemn it and if act of terrorism means burning of religious places like a Church etc then yes i call it an act of terrorism and expect the same to be 1 when done against my faith (burning of a mosque etc).

Will you publicly condemn the marchers in London carrying plaques inciting Religious hatred and violence?

Too general term please give details regarding wht you call as inciting religious hatred?

Will you publicly condemn the burning down of Embassies?

Yes i agree to the very fact that this act does not justify in one form or the other the aspirations of the Muslim faith. But then i never said i am pro for this act. The religious leaders and in some cases the Gov themself have used these acts for their own agenda.

Will you publicly condemn followers of Islam who are using any excuse available to further their own aims?

Such a person doesnt stand for islam if he aint in all this for the same purpose as others, how can i take side with such a person. I dont stand for any person who aint in this for the soul purpose that this act was not good and to stop this act. The path to stop this act can be different which for some meanz asking the Denmark for an Apology or to boycott Danish goodz etc.

Will you publicly condemn all incitement to violence by members of the Muslim Faith?

Too general term for me to be pro or against. If in Iraq and Afghanistan where muslims are being killed just for fc*kN oil and resources and you expect any1 asking to fight back as incitement to violence then i dont condemn it at all as every1 has a right to defend oneself.
if EU can come up with a joint declaration or a stand regarding any of its member country then whts wrong with the muslim world to practice the same?

Would you agree that any Muslim with extremist views is not a true follower of the Prophet who preaches peace and tolerance?

Again wht is your defination of extremist? If a person wants his women to cover herself from head to toe and you call such person as extremist then sorry i dont agree with you.

The problem is that you have been constantly told what is an extremist and wht is not?? you have dictators working inaccordance with the views of USA are fine and a democratically elected gov being axis of evil???/ I wonder isnt this all politics and to build a world view against so called enemies of the humanity?
If you beleive in democracy then also beleive in what the people want? People in middle east want control over their own resources?? but then this meanz no monoply over oil for USA so….. their goes your pro democracy stance?? In Pakistan where you want to get rid of so called terrorist which were Mujahadinz (freedom fighters) when USSR was in Afghanistan … then u are more then happy to support a dictator.
Aint these double standards??? i dont hear protests around EU regarding this open violation and mocary rather you would have Open protest against OPEC over high oil prices.
thing is simple man if gov dont represent ppl then another force will emerge which will represent the people? The so called Religious leaders may be working for their own agendas but they r doing so because in the first place ppl aint gettn their voice heard n a simple reason for all tht is the double standards which west n usa have regarding their own intrests in the Muslim world.

A-2-S

Simple questions, no debate, just give honest straightforward answers.

Will you publicly condemn all acts of terror committed by those of Muslim Faith?

Will you publicly condemn the marchers in London carrying plaques inciting Religious hatred and violence?

Will you publicly condemn the burning down of Embassies?

Will you publicly condemn followers of Islam who are using any excuse available to further their own aims?

Will you publicly condemn all incitement to violence by members of the Muslim Faith?

Would you agree that any Muslim with extremist views is not a true follower of the Prophet who preaches peace and tolerance?

All Religions are flawed. The power behind the throne of Islam is deliberately trying to incite their followers to commit violent political acts in the name of Religion.

I have no problem with Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism or any other Religion. I do however have a problem with extremists.

Regards,

kev35

This part i like to direct towards to moderator as clearly kev crossed the line and have directly targetted Islam as a religion and in a suggestive manner make a point that i am the tool to justify these terrorist acts. I expect that the post by Kev to be deleted on the basis that he has directed his personal thoughts and ideas rather then logic and respect for my religion.

Your complaint has been reviewed and there is nothing to warrant any Moderator action in Kev’s post. All members here are free to express their opinions, provided such expression remains within the boundaries of the Code of Conduct for this forum.

So, A-2-S, someone challenges you and you want the same kind of repressive censorship which your Religion espouses?

I live in an area with a high Muslim population. The elders are not interested in the cartoons, they feel the outcry was unwarranted and a stain on their Religion. Like most people they just want to get by and live their lives. The Asian (and white) youth where I live are too busy drinking alcohol to excess and taking and dealing drugs to bother about any slight to their Religion, intended or otherwise.

Anyway, isn’t the greater insult to Islam being caused by the blowing up of sacred Mosques by rival Muslim factions? Or does Allah feel that is right and appropriate behaviour for his followers?

By the way, it is true, isn’t it that Muslim newspapers depict Jews and therefore Judaism as bestial? Rather makes your protests about Danish cartoons seem trivial at best.

Regards,

kev35

What A-2-S is trying to legitimise is terrorism, oure and simple.

Well why am i not surprised to receive this stamp. Thanks for making it clear in writting regarding your views for some1 you tend to differ.

A Muslim newspaper or TV channel posts cartoons about God and the Christian Faith which are deemed to be insulting.

Why will this happen when Islam clearly stops this in the first place. What you forgot to mention is that muslims are trying for and putting forward is a motion at UNO to ban any such attempt against any Prophet which is ofcourse important to the corresponding religion. Muslims are not voicing not only for their religion but also for Chirstianity and Judism as per our teaching we must respect the Prophets of these religions aswell. So bottom line your so called assumption is totally groundless and nothing but a mere last atempt to show muslims as voilant people.
And which part did i said that voilance was good and i support for it? my whole point is for the anger against the incident not the voilance. So get corrected in that regard.

It is okay for terrorists and insurgents of the Muslim Faith to attack innocent civilians around the world (Bali, London, New York) in fact they are applauded for it and promised the status of martyr. A Faith which espouses such action is, I reiterate, not worthy of being considered a Religion.

Yet again you tried to associate terrorism and Islam in a single context. And as per your mention of these acts well i need not to point the Great wars against terrorism which resulted in killing of women and children ( Muslim people) in Afghanistan and Iraq and is still going on. The inhumane treatment of the prisonerz by the so called liberators??? I did not mention all tht because that was not the discussion point the point was the act which sterred strong anger in the muslim world. Its only your point of these facts that i have to mention all these things.

This part i like to direct towards to moderator as clearly kev crossed the line and have directly targetted Islam as a religion and in a suggestive manner make a point that i am the tool to justify these terrorist acts. I expect that the post by Kev to be deleted on the basis that he has directed his personal thoughts and ideas rather then logic and respect for my religion.

The problem is that none of this is anything to do with cartoons, newspapers, freedom of speech or any other kind of misunderstanding. It’s simply this:

An element of the followers of the Muslim Religion, which we are led to believe promotes peace, tolerance and understanding, are hell bent on using any excuse imaginable to incite racial and Religious hatred, violence and mistrust for their own ends. What A-2-S is trying to legitimise is terrorism, oure and simple.

To try to make the point clear to A-2-S, let’s look at a hypothetical situation:

Let’s say I am a devout Christian. A Muslim newspaper or TV channel posts cartoons about God and the Christian Faith which are deemed to be insulting. Would A-2-S then accept that it is right and lawful for myself and other Christians to burn down the Embassies of Islamic Countries and to march with banners proclaiming death to all Muslims?

The answer would be no, because the Muslim extremists operate to a huge double standard. It is okay for terrorists and insurgents of the Muslim Faith to attack innocent civilians around the world (Bali, London, New York) in fact they are applauded for it and promised the status of martyr. A Faith which espouses such action is, I reiterate, not worthy of being considered a Religion. It is time that the majority of Muslims, the non radical, non-extremists, took charge of their Religion to show the world that Islam is a Religion of peace, tolerance and understanding.

Regards,

kev35