Putin's "Catastrophe"

…but I don’t see a lot of people like yourself acknowledging that America isn’t all bad.

Then you’re just not looking, J B. There are plenty of examples of exactly that in this forum alone.

Perhaps you identify your own beliefs and opinions so strongly with the USA itself that you perceive any dissent from or disagreement with the former as criticism of the latter?

Of course the USA isn’t all bad – and the same can be said of Moslems and Frenchmen…… can’t it? Hmmm?

And lets not forget US national guardsmen shooting unarmed US students who were exercising their supposed democratic right to protest the war in vietnam.
John doens’t seem to like western europeans much…

Kent State was a real tragedy.
If you knew the story behind it, you’d know the shooting occurred after a day or so of rioting..a school building was burned the day before…somebody threw something and the young guardsmen thought they were being attacked and paniced.
That’s Not even close to a national policy to shoot people trying to escape a dicatorship.
Even trying to compare the two shows your extreme bias.

Don’t get me wrong, I love Europeans…I’m even married to one. I drive a Mercedes and a Mini Cooper. 😀

I’ve spent more time in Europe than you’ve spent in America.
No, I’m not anti-European…it’s just that I’m tired of having to defend my country to a bunch of people who seem to have a natural anti-US bias.
I wouldn’t mind it if more of the people a shred of objectrivity about them.

I concede America is far from perfect…but I don’t see a lot of people like yourself acknowledging that America isn’t all bad.

It was US power that kept Western Europe free from Soviet domination during the cold war. Now a whole generation sees America as the bad guys.
I don’t expect eternal gratitude, I would like a bit of objective, knowledgeable opinions.

And let’s not forget East Germans shooting their own unarmed counytrymen trying to escape to the west.

And lets not forget US national guardsmen shooting unarmed US students who were exercising their supposed democratic right to protest the war in vietnam. Crossing borders illegally is actually a crime in some places…

I wonder how the western Europeans on the forum like being branded as “psychos”.

I’d like to know how they feel as well. And quite glad it wasn’t me that called them psychos… some of them are OK.

Well, considering who made the remark, I would say the joke is on those who think it was ment as a joke?

John doens’t seem to like western europeans much… which is amusing considering his strong anti communist stance would suggest he’d prefer the Eastern Europeans were more like the western europeans… or perhaps that isn’t true… perhaps he thinks everyon should be like americans… but then clinton is american… perhaps he thinks everyone should be more like Busche.

I wonder how the western Europeans on the forum like being branded as “psychos”.

From a Western European standpoint… right on! 😀

Well, considering who made the remark, I would say the joke is on those who think it was ment as a joke? 😉

Sauron

I wonder how many western Europeans on this forum took that post as anything more than a joke, Sauron.
BARNOWL

I wonder how the western Europeans on the forum like being branded as “psychos”.

Sauron

Hahahaha… the US could care less about so called democracy. Once one side is branded red or even slightly red (or even nationalist) then the other side gets the money and support… even if they are psychos.

duh sherlock, that was the point I was trying to make :rolleyes:

Actually, Poland and Czechoslovakia had been out of Soviet political influence already by the time that the USSR ceased to exist

While technically true…they wouldn’t have been able to break away without the turmoil in the USSR that led to its breakup a short time later.

In the old days the USSR never would have let it happen…remember the Czech liberalization movement put down in 1968…or the Hungarian Revolt put down rather bloodily in 1956?

And let’s not forget East Germans shooting their own unarmed counytrymen trying to escape to the west. The late, unlamented USSR (and it’s lackeys around the world) has a lot to answer for.

Once one side is branded red or even slightly red (or even nationalist) then the other side gets the money and support… even if they are psychos.

Hence US support for Western Europe 😀 😀 😀

US supports only democratic popular people either, but they’ve done a better job of using the notion of democracy to help change the political leanings of many of these countries, to their favor.

Hahahaha… the US could care less about so called democracy. Once one side is branded red or even slightly red (or even nationalist) then the other side gets the money and support… even if they are psychos.

As some one who is one of the official minorities in Russia.. I’ll say this. The recent events in Ukraine and Kyrgyzstan as well as the US push for a pro-Western Belarus is very unnerving for the Russians, especially with the Pro-Russian candidates/leaders are now out of action in those two countries, and perhaps Belarus as well.

Because of this there has been protests in Bashkortostan, which is one of the strongly nationalistic regions (which include Tatarstan, Bashkortostan, Sakha, Chechnya, Kalmykia, and to some extent, Chuvashia).

Can Putin do something about this? Unlikely, many of the pro-Russia candidates aren’t too popular and aren’t very democratic either.. although not that i am implying the US supports only democratic popular people either, but they’ve done a better job of using the notion of democracy to help change the political leanings of many of these countries, to their favor.

I know what he is trying to say…the breakup did aid several separatist movements…but those were already underway before the breakup.

But let’s not lose sight of my point…several nations regained their sovereignty.

The reason why there are separatist movements is because their countries/regions effectively lost their independence to the former USSR….Now Putin seems to be saying they should’nt be fighting for their independence.
But they wouldn’t BE fighting for independence if the USSR hadn’t taken them over in the first place.
It’s called a “Catch 22” Mr. Putin.

Actually, Poland and Czechoslovakia had been out of Soviet political influence already by the time that the USSR ceased to exist, so that is a non-argument. And the Baltics were also part of Russia in Czarist days. If it weren’t for the October Revolution, they wouldn’t have gotten their two decades of independence in the interbellum anyway.

That said, Putin’s obviously on one of his nationalist rants. The way the USSR ended definately didn’t deserve a beauty prize, but a catastrophe? Nope.

Lets not cry any tears about the end of the USSR. Given it’s murderous nature it’s death was remarkably easy. The creation of the USSR was the greatest catastrophe of the 20th century. Not it’s collapse.

Sauron

I’m not sure anyone is crying any tears over the death of the USSR; it’s simply an acknowledgement that maybe it couldve been done better…? In the space of ten years there was a massive amount of activity; and it wasn’t done with the care and delicacy that it should have been, perhaps. To me it seems that the communists were defeated, but noone really knew what to do with a democratic Russia afterwards. “We won! Hooray, were free…..um, now what?”

Now, countries like Chechnya and Georgia are finding their feet, their identities, Moscow needs to throw support behind this, in an effort to unify Eastern Europe and become part of the 21st Century and, the EU. At least thats how I see it.

As far as not being the greatest catastrophe of the century; you are correct there. Much bigger things take that “honor”.

Lets not cry any tears about the end of the USSR. Given it’s murderous nature it’s death was remarkably easy. The creation of the USSR was the greatest catastrophe of the 20th century. Not it’s collapse.

Sauron

Perhaps had the breakup of the USSR not been so….sudden, if things had been taken slower; if there had been a some sort of timeline; it would have been possible to avoid current tensions in the region. I agree with Putin. The way it was done, and the fallout was a “catastrophe”. But, nothing to do but go forward I suppose and do the best they can. Not sure that’s what he’s doing…but, thats a different topic.

I know what he is trying to say…the breakup did aid several separatist movements…but those were already underway before the breakup.

But let’s not lose sight of my point…several nations regained their sovereignty.

The reason why there are separatist movements is because their countries/regions effectively lost their independence to the former USSR….Now Putin seems to be saying they should’nt be fighting for their independence.
But they wouldn’t BE fighting for independence if the USSR hadn’t taken them over in the first place.
It’s called a “Catch 22” Mr. Putin.

I think this one is all about context. When you look at it in the right light, Putin hit the nail on the head. With all that the USSR had invested in the Communist system, it really did turn out to be one of the worst moves of all time, geopolitically speaking.

Yes – this one’s got me scratching my head, too. :confused: