Kids murder is pure evil

If you truely belive this then you know nothing about Israel or Israelis, nor of the events around,

Ummm, I was merely pointing out that when a militarily superior force occupies land and controls nationals it does not consider its own it uses tactics that are similar when faced with similar problems.

but it seems that conflicts/wars involving those of the Islamic faith have never ceased, and have always been much more widespread than those of other faiths.

So are these muslims only fighting each other? For them to have never stopped fighting one would assume they would be fighting someone… do they only fight other muslims or members of other faiths. Surely if other faiths are fighting them ceaselessly then they must carry at least part of the blame?

Please give a full list of all the muslim related wars and a list of non muslim related wars so we can compare them. Or is this just a generalisation intended to denegrate Muslims by suggesting they like fighting?

Viper you have some valid points about religion in general and Christianity is by no means exempt from actions of those I refer to simply as idiots, but it seems that conflicts/wars involving those of the Islamic faith have never ceased, and have always been much more widespread than those of other faiths.

Nowadays, we have the troubles in the Middle East, the Chechen problem which again does have some Islamic influence, the troubles between two certain countries in Asia which I won’t name because of imminent flaming dangers, but suffice it to say one of them is predominantly Islamic.

There are also issues in Africa involving Islam.

Why is it so widespread now?

Or a better question is why has it always been so widespread. What is it about the religion of Islam that seems to bring so many extremists?

Is it inherent in the people or the religion or what?

I just don’t understand why.

There were plenty of Russian soldiers who went on one way missions to remove Nazis from their country. Obviously the Jews are not comparable to the Nazis in the sense that they don’t seem to want to systematically wipe out any other culture, but many of their methods and rhetoric sounds similar… for example chat to an israeli about the difference between religion and ethnicity, genetics, and of course palestinian ghettos and walls.

If you truely belive this then you know nothing about Israel or Israelis, nor of the events around, but then we’ve established that long ago. You’re cowardly insinuations are disugsting, we can pick off the discussion right where we left off :
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=10400

How do you even try to defend against suicide bombers?

There were plenty of Russian soldiers who went on one way missions to remove Nazis from their country. Obviously the Jews are not comparable to the Nazis in the sense that they don’t seem to want to systematically wipe out any other culture, but many of their methods and rhetoric sounds similar… for example chat to an israeli about the difference between religion and ethnicity, genetics, and of course palestinian ghettos and walls.

Those people don’t want Israel out of the occupied areas. They want Israel out of existence. Obviously that can’t happen so the violence will never halt.

Some do indeed, but the fast majority just want to build up a life in peace. Which simply is impossible to do iat the moment. So I think if we could build up a Palastinian state which could function and be sustained then we would be on the road to peace.

Those people don’t want Israel out of the occupied areas. They want Israel out of existence. Obviously that can’t happen so the violence will never halt.

passive and preventive measures of defense

How do you even try to defend against suicide bombers?

Well, Arafat has confirmed one of my worst fears….

Apparently yesterday he gave some speech about in it he is quoted as saying “terrorize your enemies”. According to the article there is somewhere in the Koran (pardon the spelling if it’s wrong), so I must ask you……..is that religion really peaceful??

I can’t speak for 99 percent of the religions in the world, but I do know that in the Bible it says to love your enemies and forgive them (okay not exact wording, but close enough).

Now how can you interpret the former as being from a religion that supposedly is peaceful?

Sorry, but I’m confused….

P.S. Why does anyone take Arafat seriously? He’s clearly not the type of person that’s going to get the Palestinians out of their current plight. If they really want peace with Israel (which I’m beginning to question if they really do or not despite claims), then Arafat is the WRONG man to try and get that goal accomplished.

P.S.S. He also said in his speech right after his “terrorize your enemies” quote that he still seeks peace………….??!

Am I the only that that’s terribly confused by that? He says to terrorize your enemies and then goes to say that he still wants peace??

As I understand it the Bible has more violent quotes then that then the Koran. Does this mean that Christianity is evil?

Well, Arafat has confirmed one of my worst fears….

Apparently yesterday he gave some speech about in it he is quoted as saying “terrorize your enemies”. According to the article there is somewhere in the Koran (pardon the spelling if it’s wrong), so I must ask you……..is that religion really peaceful??

I can’t speak for 99 percent of the religions in the world, but I do know that in the Bible it says to love your enemies and forgive them (okay not exact wording, but close enough).

Now how can you interpret the former as being from a religion that supposedly is peaceful?

Sorry, but I’m confused….

P.S. Why does anyone take Arafat seriously? He’s clearly not the type of person that’s going to get the Palestinians out of their current plight. If they really want peace with Israel (which I’m beginning to question if they really do or not despite claims), then Arafat is the WRONG man to try and get that goal accomplished.

P.S.S. He also said in his speech right after his “terrorize your enemies” quote that he still seeks peace………….??!

Am I the only that that’s terribly confused by that? He says to terrorize your enemies and then goes to say that he still wants peace??

Dutchy

I see you have sobered up. Hope your head feels OK. I had a few myself yesterday.

It’s difficult to argue past your point about “retoric” and spurious comparisons. However, Israel exists primarily because of the WW11 and the exodus to Palestine was the consequence. That is the plain fact. Why stay where 6 million had just been murdered? Better to risk the uncertaincy of going to Palestine than to stay in the post-war turmoil of Europe. Should they have stayed to help absolve European guilt? To simplfy things and make it less ackward for Britain and France in the M-E? I doubt if many Jews at that time gave much thought to the consequenses of their actions with respect to the Palestinian population.

I also believe that absolving Arafat of any blame for the actions of the terrorists operating out of Palestine, is questionable. I have often heard it said that he is the democratically elected leader of the Palistinians. If that is so he shares the blame. And what about the responsibility of the surrounding Arab governments. Most openly encourage and finance terrorist activity against Israel. This is not the action of individuals.

I have strayed off-topic a bit. I do wonder, however, how differently the Israel-Palestinian situation might have evolved if Europe had stayed engaged in the area instead of running away from it’s historic responsibilities in the 40’s. Unfortunately the “collective guilt” for what happened to the Jews in Europe that you you speak of, nor the specific responsibility for the Palestinians and the Arabs in general was not strong enough. Instead the job gradually fell to the U.S.

Regards

Sauron

I agree with you that Europe has not been the model community. The problem was and still is that the Jews are, in the view of the Arabic Countries, occupying the Palastinian state. I think they feel that they must liberate the land from the jews. The problem seems to be unsolfable because of the hard liners on both sides. The question is if the fast majority takes over and if they will accomplish anything. Bombing Hamas leaders will not resolve anything, and in the worst case will help to create new supporters. This is a conflict which is one of the most difficult to solve. There is no right and no wrong here, just a lot of action – reaction. Someone has to break that chain, and since Israel is the state which is on top of the balance of power, I feel Israel has to act fast to bring more stability to the region. Hopefully one day every one will live in peace in the promest land.

Dutchy

I see you have sobered up. Hope your head feels OK. I had a few myself yesterday.

It’s difficult to argue past your point about “retoric” and spurious comparisons. However, Israel exists primarily because of the WW11 and the exodus to Palestine was the consequence. That is the plain fact. Why stay where 6 million had just been murdered? Better to risk the uncertaincy of going to Palestine than to stay in the post-war turmoil of Europe. Should they have stayed to help absolve European guilt? To simplfy things and make it less ackward for Britain and France in the M-E? I doubt if many Jews at that time gave much thought to the consequenses of their actions with respect to the Palestinian population.

I also believe that absolving Arafat of any blame for the actions of the terrorists operating out of Palestine, is questionable. I have often heard it said that he is the democratically elected leader of the Palistinians. If that is so he shares the blame. And what about the responsibility of the surrounding Arab governments. Most openly encourage and finance terrorist activity against Israel. This is not the action of individuals.

I have strayed off-topic a bit. I do wonder, however, how differently the Israel-Palestinian situation might have evolved if Europe had stayed engaged in the area instead of running away from it’s historic responsibilities in the 40’s. Unfortunately the “collective guilt” for what happened to the Jews in Europe that you you speak of, nor the specific responsibility for the Palestinians and the Arabs in general was not strong enough. Instead the job gradually fell to the U.S.

Regards

Sauron

Steve,
I must say “well done”. You have some very valid points, and I never thought about the Jewish element, but it makes a lot of sense. In the greater Europe though it will always be “America, Israel = bad”, “Arabs = misunderstood and mistreated”.

What utter rubish. So critisisum = bad. That is nice retoric.

It’s quite sickening what that Israeli woman and her children went through, and I hope those responsible are annihilated as soon as possible.

Yes it was, but look at the underlaying reason.

As each passing day goes by I wonder more and more about the religion of Islam…..

I want to believe it’s a peaceful religion, and by all ends I hope it truly is…….but I’m left wonder if that’s really the case…..

That is quite a bold statement. In nature all religions could be a sourse of voilence. That is because if you believe in a religion then you think you are right and the rest of the world is wrong, see where the conflict could raise?

Of all the volatile regions in the world the Middle East seems to be the worst by far, and Israel aside all the other nations are predominantly Islam. I realize I’m probably being entirely too general, but this doesn’t do much to keep that burning question out of my mind….

Personally I want my nation to have nothing to do with the Middle East. They clearly have no need for us, and I, for one, have no need for them. It’s just wishful thinking, but I want some type of energy policy that enables us to some day get away from Middle Eastern oil entirely. I don’t worry about Israel because I know they can fend for themselves. There isn’t a military power in the region that can even dare compete with them. When I compare the military power of Israel with a place like Syria I do get a good laugh because it’s such a one-sided affair. So with Israel being able to take care of themselves and the possibility of getting away from Middle East oil what reason do we even have to be involved with that region at all, especially now that Saddam is gone?

If the US would adopted such a policy then Israel would not get the billons of dollars in military aid which it currently recieves. Within 10 years Israel would probably not exsist anymore. But like you said nowedays it is a onesided affair, don’t you think that such power comes with a hudge responsibility?

Viper

I just can’t agree that the fact that while Israel was founded by and is the principle home of the Jews, that fact has nothing to do with the current Israel-Palestinian issue. It may not be an issue with Europeans, but it sure appears to be a major issue with the Arabs who voice official hatred against the Jews on a daily basis.

Well-founded criticism of Israel is fair but do European leaders regularly condemn Palestinian crimes against Israel such as the one refered to below?

Regards

Sauron

Condemn whom? Arrafat can’t be held responsible. Israel is a state and people whom fight it aren’t under such control. So if Israel retalliates then it is by far worse because of the totally imbalence of power. To solve thi issue someone should be taken the first stap. I think that Israel should pull outhis forces out of the occupied arias and atleast give that piece of land back to the Palastinians. Israel has the power and the Palastinians don’t. Is it so strange then that these people will fight back with any means they got?

MarcoMirage

“Look at who has brought them into the situation where it is better to kill or else they’ll kill…..”

Perhaps you could say the same for Israel which was established by those who survived the attempt by your fellow Europeans to eliminate them from the face of the earth. A point made clearer every day by Europes one sided support of Arab hated for the Jews. What else is new?

Sauron

Why did the UN not keep the Palestinian people in mind while creating Israel? Why did they not intervene when genocide was committed?

Sauron, this kind of retoric makes it vertually impossible to have any knd of critisium towards Israel. For us Europeans I think we all still live with the collective guild of what happend in Nazi-Germany in 39-45. That is the reason that we “condomed” the creation of the Israelli state in the first place. The problem ofcourse was and still is that there where other people living on the same piece of land. I don’t think Europe is that onesided against Israel and pro Palastinians. But it doesn’t back Israel in what ever it does! And if you call that onesided then yes we are. You begin to sound like Bush, if you are not with us you are against us, which ofcourse is just not true.

Let’s have a reality check on the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by United States troops.
This crime was exposed by a US soldier, was investigated by the US army, is being punished under US law and is deplored by the US President and all the Western press.
Yet for many ideologues, it’s proof America is corrupt, with no moral right to be in Iraq.
Now look at the murder this week of an Israeli woman and her four girls. Palestinian gunmen stopped the car of pregnant Tali Hatuel and then shot dead, one by one, her daughters, even two-year-old Merav, still in her baby seat.
It is evil beyond nightmares, yet three Islamic groups, including Islamic Jihad, backed by the Iranian Government, and Hamas, endorsed by Australia’s Mufti, bragged they’d done it.
In Iran, there’s no inquiry. In Palestine, no call to sack terror-loving Yasser Arafat. The Middle East is sick, and the sooner the tyrants who keep it so are gone, the safer. Iraq, of course, is the start.

Why are you compairing something which can’t be compaired. You are talking about a soldier which act in a military structure of a country who occupies an other country and compaire that to a lone Palastinian gun man from an occupied country which has been occuped for over 30 years. You call it evil, and of course I would too, but both incidents not just one. The middle east is a very troublesome region which hopefully will some day live in peace.

My bad Garry I meant to say the United States…….my apologies to any Candians, Mexicans, or anyone who lives in Central or South America. We must make sure we get the right people labelled as the bad guys. 🙂

Viper

I just can’t agree that the fact that while Israel was founded by and is the principle home of the Jews, that fact has nothing to do with the current Israel-Palestinian issue. It may not be an issue with Europeans, but it sure appears to be a major issue with the Arabs who voice official hatred against the Jews on a daily basis.

Well-founded criticism of Israel is fair but do European leaders regularly condemn Palestinian crimes against Israel such as the one refered to below?

Regards

Sauron

In the greater Europe though it will always be “America, Israel = bad”, “Arabs = misunderstood and mistreated”.

No, no, no, America includes both North, South and Central America. Chile isn’t bad, nor is Brazil. It is the US that is evil.

Steve,
I must say “well done”. You have some very valid points, and I never thought about the Jewish element, but it makes a lot of sense. In the greater Europe though it will always be “America, Israel = bad”, “Arabs = misunderstood and mistreated”.

It’s quite sickening what that Israeli woman and her children went through, and I hope those responsible are annihilated as soon as possible.

As each passing day goes by I wonder more and more about the religion of Islam…..

I want to believe it’s a peaceful religion, and by all ends I hope it truly is…….but I’m left wonder if that’s really the case…..

Of all the volatile regions in the world the Middle East seems to be the worst by far, and Israel aside all the other nations are predominantly Islam. I realize I’m probably being entirely too general, but this doesn’t do much to keep that burning question out of my mind….

Personally I want my nation to have nothing to do with the Middle East. They clearly have no need for us, and I, for one, have no need for them. It’s just wishful thinking, but I want some type of energy policy that enables us to some day get away from Middle Eastern oil entirely. I don’t worry about Israel because I know they can fend for themselves. There isn’t a military power in the region that can even dare compete with them. When I compare the military power of Israel with a place like Syria I do get a good laugh because it’s such a one-sided affair. So with Israel being able to take care of themselves and the possibility of getting away from Middle East oil what reason do we even have to be involved with that region at all, especially now that Saddam is gone?

I am too drunk too even react to this massage, I will do so in the morning or afternoon when ever I feel up to it, but it never seems to amaze me the reactions you get after posting such a notice.