Dutch/Holland/Netherlands question

Thanks for that Dutchy. My favourite Soccer team (although you couldn’t tell from my avatar nor handle, for that matter) is the Dutch national team. Now I see where their symbol came from as well.

What does this orange flag look like? I’ve always only been familiar with the one Dutchy has in his avatar. I always wondered why the soccer uniforms were orange.

Here is the royal standard:

and the coad of arms of The Kingdom of the Netherlands:

And all you ever wanted to know and more about the Dutch Royal Family:

http://www.koninklijkhuis.nl/UK/

What does this orange flag look like? I’ve always only been familiar with the one Dutchy has in his avatar. I always wondered why the soccer uniforms were orange.

Law? It’s just a matter of constitutions, which is important for everyone, even if you don’t study law. However, you don’t want me to defend in you in court as a lawyer. 😀 ‘ll just stick to teaching a bunch of uninterrested nose-picking scholars the essence of history

To add one more thing on the capitals. In 1810 when Napoleon conquered the Netherland (which was just a formal action as the king was his brother), he made Amsterdam the second capital of his empire, and Rome the third.

Why the title “Landsadvocaat” then? Surely Belgium doesn’t need to be defended on this forum 😉

Law? It’s just a matter of constitutions, which is important for everyone, even if you don’t study law. However, you don’t want me to defend in you in court as a lawyer. 😀 ‘ll just stick to teaching a bunch of uninterrested nose-picking scholars the essence of history

To add one more thing on the capitals. In 1810 when Napoleon conquered the Netherland (which was just a formal action as the king was his brother), he made Amsterdam the second capital of his empire, and Rome the third.

Well Jeroen, I think the Dutch sentiment towards Europe has to do with the fact that the Republic was very much related to the new trading system. The reason why the Republic survived was due economic reasons, so that explains probably why the Republic rather cooperated than fighted with the other major European superpowers, 3 wars with England which it provoked itself being the exeption.

However, Flags, national anthems etc. you have to be careful with. These are 19th century ‘Romantic’ inventions to promote nationalism. Belgium had The Guldensporenslag, the new kingdom of the Netherlands the Batavian myth. So the national symbols are not very historical anyway, they are more a product of 19th century invented traditions. And it changes all the time. During nazi-occupation, the Germans tried to bring the Flemish and the Dutch together by bringing back the topic of a “Groot-Nederland.” History can be used as a political tool as well. In the early days of the Belgian kingdom, historians didn’t even mention the fact that north and south were once very close.

The official name of YOUR country now is not “Nederland” but “Koninkrijk der Nederlanden”, in plural. When north and south were brought together again in 1815 it was called “Verenigd Koninkrijk der Nederlanden/The United Kingdom”. And while we are busy: your queen is “koningin der nederlanden”, our king is “koning der Belgen.” What’s the difference? Well, our king is – how strange it may sound – only chosen by the will of the people. Theoretically, the people should just inform the king with a note “get lost” so he could look after another job 😀 In the Netherlands, the queen is constitutionally a lot more powerful.

On the language issue I can tell you one thing: different language doesn’t mean a different culture. As much as I like the Netherlands, apart from the language, Flemish and Walloons have really more in common. The Dutch spoken in Belgium today is actually the language used in Antwerp, a bit like Holland became the cultural frontrunner in the Netherlands. So there do exist Belgians, and not only Flemish and Walloons. In fact, being Belgian is less artificial than the other two, because it has been united 250 years before its formal independence in 1830. Regionalism is not bad, but not in it’s current form which is related to extreme right.

One last remark. South Africa has actually 4 capitals. Parliament in Capetown, Gov’t in Pretoria, Supreme Court in Bloemfontein (?) and the national bank, thus economic centre, in Jo’burg. And ofcourse another example of dividing powers between multiple cities is the EU: Brussels, Frankfurt, Luxemburg, Straatsburg and a national capital.

On a side note, when did you take up law, Ben?

Well Jeroen, I think the Dutch sentiment towards Europe has to do with the fact that the Republic was very much related to the new trading system. The reason why the Republic survived was due economic reasons, so that explains probably why the Republic rather cooperated than fighted with the other major European superpowers, 3 wars with England which it provoked itself being the exeption.

However, Flags, national anthems etc. you have to be careful with. These are 19th century ‘Romantic’ inventions to promote nationalism. Belgium had The Guldensporenslag, the new kingdom of the Netherlands the Batavian myth. So the national symbols are not very historical anyway, they are more a product of 19th century invented traditions. And it changes all the time. During nazi-occupation, the Germans tried to bring the Flemish and the Dutch together by bringing back the topic of a “Groot-Nederland.” History can be used as a political tool as well. In the early days of the Belgian kingdom, historians didn’t even mention the fact that north and south were once very close.

The official name of YOUR country now is not “Nederland” but “Koninkrijk der Nederlanden”, in plural. When north and south were brought together again in 1815 it was called “Verenigd Koninkrijk der Nederlanden/The United Kingdom”. And while we are busy: your queen is “koningin der nederlanden”, our king is “koning der Belgen.” What’s the difference? Well, our king is – how strange it may sound – only chosen by the will of the people. Theoretically, the people should just inform the king with a note “get lost” so he could look after another job 😀 In the Netherlands, the queen is constitutionally a lot more powerful.

On the language issue I can tell you one thing: different language doesn’t mean a different culture. As much as I like the Netherlands, apart from the language, Flemish and Walloons have really more in common. The Dutch spoken in Belgium today is actually the language used in Antwerp, a bit like Holland became the cultural frontrunner in the Netherlands. So there do exist Belgians, and not only Flemish and Walloons. In fact, being Belgian is less artificial than the other two, because it has been united 250 years before its formal independence in 1830. Regionalism is not bad, but not in it’s current form which is related to extreme right.

One last remark. South Africa has actually 4 capitals. Parliament in Capetown, Gov’t in Pretoria, Supreme Court in Bloemfontein (?) and the national bank, thus economic centre, in Jo’burg. And ofcourse another example of dividing powers between multiple cities is the EU: Brussels, Frankfurt, Luxemburg, Straatsburg and a national capital.

As a history major you could answer this question Ben, I always thought that in the time that our two lovely countries were still one it was called “De Nederlanden” instead of nowadays Nederland. I like the Flemish dialect a lot, I think it is more pure then the Dutch language, which was the dialect in Holland btw before it became the official language.

The official Dutch we use in the Netherlands is actually very, very heavily influenced by Antwerp. As you perhaps know, the first benchmark for a commonly accepted Dutch language (later known as Algemeen Beschaafd Nederlands or Common Civilised Dutch, now Algemeen Nederlands without the Civilised bit) was derived from the Statenbijbel, the Dutch-language bible printed in great quantities from the late 1500s onward. This Statenbijbel was actually for a very large part produced by, and for, the refugees from Antwerp (who fled Antwerp in 1585, also see the VOC thread). So it was also ‘their’ language, which formed the basis for our modern-day Dutch.

The original language of Amsterdam and surroundings (basically the only part of the Netherlands that really mattered around those times) was a appearantly a lot closer to Frisian.

As for the name ‘House of Orange’, the Dutch royal family (also in their pre-Royal days) never actually lived there. The family originates in Germany, most notably the Dillenburg area some 100km north of Frankfurt. One of their offspring, a certain Willem, inherited some real-estate from René du Chalons including the city of Orange in France (home of EC.5 with it’s Mirage 2000s) and some posessions in the Netherlands. This inheritance basically started off the Dutch-Spanish war of 1568-1648. I don’t think any ruling member of the Dutch House of Orange ever took actual control over Orange. By the late 1650s, these lands had already been taken over by Louis XIV of France, the Sun King.

Bolivia in South America has 2 capitals also. La Paz, which is the seat of Government, Sucré, which is the Legal Capital.

Another strange fact about Holland is that the capital and the place of government aren’t the same, Amsterdam and The Hague respectively. Don’t know of any other country who has that, but there must be more.

South Africa is one.

BTW Ben , where is this Orange colour coming from?
Is it from the Orange House dynasty?

Yes Allan, the monarchy is the House of Orange, and our Queen is still princess of Orange-Nassau. And Orange is a town in France. So that would make every Dutchman an European minded person, I mean we wave a flag which reminds us of a Dutch Town, in our national anthem we honour the king off Spain and say we are from German origin. Strange people whom occupy this small piece of land which is called The Kingdom of the Netherlands.

As a history major you could answer this question Ben, I always thought that in the time that our two lovely countries were still one it was called “De Nederlanden” instead of nowadays Nederland. I like the Flemish dialect a lot, I think it is more pure then the Dutch language, which was the dialect in Holland btw before it became the official language.

Another strange fact about Holland is that the capital and the place of government aren’t the same, Amsterdam and The Hague respectively. Don’t know of any other country who has that, but there must be more.

Personally i think that the subtitles should be abolished and put on teletext. Not just those of programs from Belgium but also from England, US, Germany…….

In Bachten de Kupe wieder spreekn etwa da iedrèè ku verstoa. As I’ve lived near the coast (Koksijde) I even have problems understanding people from a nearby inland town (Veurne). Ofcourse, that might have to do with the fact that I’m half Antwierpeneer.

To be honest, the subtitles don’t bother me. The only dilemma is my laziness. Am I too lazy to translate or to read? Most of the times though I fall asleep in front of the TV after a while.

I can bet you they won’t understand. Those westerners are thick as sh!t. During the summer season I more than once have been answered back in German. Some seem to think that my Achterhoek accent is a sign of a German background! In Zeeland it is the worst as during the summer that because a German tourist enclave.

Ja, azwo an beetje van bachtn de kuipe nje? But that Is what I like about my west-flemish dialect. I am going to work in the north of the netherlands for one month in November (near to Amsterdam). I just might test how much the people over there will understand of what I am saying. That may be a nice experience/experiment.

J.V.

You know, I don’t understand the subtitles on Dutch TV of Belgian programs either. I can always follow it. But sometimes I have real difficulties understanding a local talking in Achterhoeks Plat dialect.

Maybe I should move to belgium. Leave the “unisex country”.

West-Flemish and Limburgish are no sepperate languages, not at all. You probably don’t understand anything because people are speaking fast and don’t open their mouth, though I suggest you try to read Kowliers lyricks and you’ll understand it.

The Belgian Republic. Well, since the Brabant revolution started in Turnhout, near the Dutch border, it might be that your region (around Eindhoven I think) was involved in it. The territories you live in were called “generaliteitslanden” and had a different status. In fact, they were no-mansland. They didn’t belong to the south informally because they were part of Brabant. But the Republic occupied the territories as a buffer. It was probably the worst region to live in, because it didn’t have a right to vote in the Staten-Generaal.

So if you’re tired of being called Dutchmen, we could arrange a meeting in Baarle Hertog, and I’ll hand you the official documents proving you are a Belgian ! 😀

I understand what Filip Kauwlier sings, but I doubt that any Dutch people will understand his ‘Dutch’ lyrics. I want you to recognize te flemish variants on the Dutch language as a nice dialect. Why are all the belgium programs in Holland/the Netherlands,… (somtimes even in Belgium) with subtitles. Because we all speek the same language, but we dont understand eachother? 😉

The fact that we are speaking the same language with so many differences makes it amusing for me. Lets keep it that way please.

Thanks,

J.V.

Frisian and Limburgish are linguistically different enough from Dutch to warrant an independent status as a language. Don’t know about West Flemish, but it sure sounds impossible enough to give it a separate status.

Do you happen to know which territories were actually part of the Belgian Republic? It’s from the historical era in which my region was more involved with Belgian history than Dutch, so i’m curious about that.

Cool, now these are discussions I like.

You are right about the Belgium thing being something from the Romans. Though, under the reign of the Spanish, the Southern Netherlands were called ‘Belgica’ already. Anyway, it’s very confusing, and changes all the times. I just wanted to clear out the “low lands” have not always been sepperated, and before 1588 someone from Koksijde was as much a Nederlander as someone from Leeuwarden. (now they only have a helicopter-base in common).

The ‘Belgian’ Republic was not a succes though. We only made it for 9 months! 😀 So we decided from then on a monarch with little intellectual capabilities is probably the best.

On the language. I understand little of Flip Kowlier, but I like his music though. But to be honest, dialects is not my thing. I have less problems understanding someone from Holland than someone from (Belgian)Limburg for example. But Flemish is not a language you’re right, we should call it Dutch. There are only 21 million people still using it, so we shouldn’t divide it even more. Frisian is not a dialect though, it’s a different Germanic language, just like English or German.