a few months ago, there were a number of dicussion involving china, and i, a chinese national now living abroad, was shocked and apploled at the kinds of out-of-date steriotypes and cold war era propanganda that still influence how many in the west thinks of china.
unfortunatly i was quiet busy with an important personal project at the time, so was unable to properly present what i feel is the real china of today, as i saw it through my own eyes and my experiences of growing up and living there. but now that i have the time, i would like to revisit this old topic and start a civilised and mature discussion on what china is really like, to try to show u my country through clear and unclolored windows.
the following artical published in the guardien is one of the most fair and balanced accounts of what china is really like that i have seen in the west or even in china itself. this should help to set the grounds for our discussion.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,982029,00.html
Goodbye to China
Rapid change in Beijing is about to shatter our crude cold war cliches
John Gittings
Saturday June 21, 2003
The Guardian
I thought for a moment that I was going to be “liberated by the masses” from my temporary jail in the north Chinese countryside. The wooden doors to the courtyard where I was being held were flung open by three or four broad-shouldered peasants who advanced upon my captors: a crowd of murmuring villagers followed them. Their advance slowed to an uncertain halt. Faced with the village policeman and some junior police officers from the nearby town, my new friends hesitated and, without a word on either side, drifted back outside again.
I was left to contemplate my crime: I had not applied for permission (which I knew I would be refused) to visit this village. I would have to wait for more senior officials to arrive so that I could be interrogated, sign a ritual confession, and be put back on the night express to Beijing. It was dark before they came, and we had to do the stern questioning and the confession by candlelight. When I finally left, the peasant crowd was still milling restlessly outside under the stars,
The villagers’ silent protest reflected the deep hostility felt by many rural Chinese towards the cadres who so often bully and over-tax them. They did not know whether I had broken the law or not, but they were on my side.
Yet the lesson is not that China is ruled by a totalitarian machine with an all-powerful grip. If I had not lingered in the village too long and been caught by the local cop, no one in Beijing would have complained about the story that I wrote afterwards. Chinese bureaucrats usually do not want to be bothered – and many believe the rules are outdated anyhow. One young official with the job of monitoring what the British press writes about China regularly tones down his summaries: “There’s no point in upsetting some old guy among the top leaders,” he explains.
A quarter of a century after Mao Zedong died (and since I began to report regularly from China) the country is still in a process of uneven transition where the reality is often not what it seems. Trying to understand this is made harder by the wooden propaganda in which the Communist party is always “great, glorious and correct”. It is equally complicated by the crude stereotypes – often dating back to the cold war – that still mould many western perceptions of China.
Too often the complexities of life in China are reduced to what I came to call, during my last five years’ reporting from Hong Kong and Shanghai, the “babies-in-ditch” cliche. Yes, babies, especially unwanted female ones, do get abandoned: they also get sold. (The village where I was arrested was a baby-selling centre: the story had already been exposed in the Chinese press.) Yet babies also get rescued from ditches and from the dealers, by passers-by and by dedicated welfare officials and police. Many of them get adopted too – often by couples who “want a girl”. In a village outside Beijing, disabled children from a city orphanage were fostered by rich farming families who did not really need the modest subsidy they gained. Once the kids reached 16, they were supposed to go back to the city, but the house mothers had a different idea. “They’ve become part of the family now: we can’t let them go!”
The foreign media exposes – rightly – the plight of the millions of Chinese workers laid off with miserable benefits from failing state-owned industries. Yet for years western diplomatic sources, quoted by the same media, have insisted that China’s readiness to dismantle its “unprofitable” state industrial sector is a key test of its “commitment to reform”. We have drawn attention – correctly – to the pitiful state of China’s rural medical services which would be quite unable to cope if the Sars virus spread deep into the countryside. Yet when China took the quasi-capitalist road under the rule of Deng Xiaoping, there was widespread applause for its wholesale rejection of the socialist values of the past – including the rural “barefoot doctors” whose absence is now deplored.
In judging Chinese foreign policy too, Beijing’s “rationality” is too often measured by a partisan pro-US yardstick. In 1999 it was accused of stirring up xenophobia when many Chinese objected loudly to the American bombing of their embassy in Belgrade. Their genuine anger at the US spy-plane episode in April 2001 was also said to have been orchestrated. The real surprise should have been the speed with which Beijing patched up the dispute with a new US administration that had already sounded an unfriendly note towards China.
On the night of September 11, China was accused of reacting callously because the state TV did not carry live coverage from New York (though several provincial stations that I watched in Shanghai pirated CNN to do so). The reality was that China joined the US-led “war on terror” very quickly, and has kept its criticism of the Iraq war strictly muted. In Beijing I witnessed recently how the only Chinese demonstration against the war was squelched by police, while a march by foreign residents was tolerated for just 20 minutes.
China’s missile deployment and its formal refusal to “renounce the use of force” are cited as a threat to Taiwan. Again, the real story should be Beijing’s failure to do more than verbally denounce the pro-independence government.
Many Chinese who are critical of their own government still find western coverage unbalanced. “I object strongly to the persecution of the Falun Gong and other human rights abuses,” says a graduate from an MBA programme in the US, “but I simply did not recognise my country in the one-sided reporting there.” Chinese officials tighten a vicious circle of misunderstanding further by blocking the kind of access that would give a more balanced picture. A foreign NGO working in Yunnan province on HIV-Aids tried for nearly a year without success to get permission for the Guardian to cover its project. “The irony is that the authorities there are doing really good work”, said the project director.
I believe however that the speed of change in China is now so fast that within the next decade the stereotypes will be shattered – on both sides.
Many aspects of emerging capitalism in China are as raw and bloody – and as historically inevitable – as when Marx chronicled them 150 years ago in Europe. Western manufacturers (and consumers) benefit from the comparative advantage of cheap Chinese labour, while shaking their heads when another sweatshop with barred windows catches fire and a dozen more workers die. Yet the migration of between 70 million and 100 million migrant workers to the cities will create a reverse flow of social awareness transforming rural life. Many young rural women are already less willing to accept the male domination of family elders.
We frown on the ugly glossiness of the new urban China, with its extremely rich who build replicas of the White House on their estates and squander millions in the casinos of Asia. More significant in coming years will be the growth of a better-educated middle class with more modest aims and a much greater social identity.
Foreign China specialists are wary of making predictions about the future -we have often been wrong in the past – leaving the field to a small number of doomsday forecasts about the “collapse of China”. Certainly the Communist party is still moving too slowly and its brutish instruments of repression remain mostly unaccountable. Yet a series of shocks, from the 1998 floods to this year’s Sars crisis, have already forced the leadership to show more concern for the rich-poor gap, the deprived inner provinces and the environment.
I believe that younger forces in the party and outside will prevail and that China has a better chance of making a peaceful transition. The determined young journalists whom I got to know and the cheerful students my wife taught offer the best hope for the future.
· John Gittings recently returned from Shanghai, after 25 years reporting for the Guardian on China
By: plawolf - 24th June 2003 at 14:13
to clear things up
“First you say this:
“as for ‘reuniting on equal terms’, well, with no disrespect, but ur a little nieve to think that’ll happen. NO nation or leader on earth would accept those therms if they were in the PRC’s shoes,”
And then you say this:
“we’re not asking them to just ‘junk their system of government/law and assimilate into this economic progression that the geniuses of PRC are planning’. ever hear of the ‘one nation two rules’ ‘thingy’? ppl like u were predicting that hong kong and marco would become communist armed camps where the ppl have to eat what they r given, do waht they are told and even take a pi$$ when they’re ordered. “
So which is it?”
the first quote u made was my answer to ur suggestion that the PRC should reunite on equal terms with taiwan. i took that(reunite on equal terms) as u trying to say that chen and co should get an equal (to beijing) say in deciding the fate of the 1.3 bn chinese on the mainland. that, of course will never happen, not even chen himself dreamed of asking for such terms.
the second quote u made is the ‘unequal terms’ the PRC is offering the ppl of taiwan. the biggest ‘inequality’ will probably be that the new mayor/governer (?) of taiwan will not have the level of political freedom as they have now (cant just decide to buy $bns worth of weapons for the US etc). also, the ppl of taiwan may not have a say in who gets a few posts in government. (there will be a few downsides to reunification, as there are with any political decision)
“You say that PRC has a claim on Taiwan because chang ki shek (spelling?) stole money and resouces from the mainland? I guess the UK has a claim on current US wealth because the colonists took british resources when they claimed independance. Howabout money/resources Hitler took, or Napolean? I could probably give you a few a hundred examples of countries that have spit or been conquered in the past 200 years where one country could claim damages or money owed from another. This arguement carrys no weight.”
with all due respect, but what the KMD took to taiwan
at the end of the chinese civil war cant be compaire with what the US took from the brits when they declear independence or what was taken by foreign invaders after invasions, the KMD practically took the kicten sink with them. taking in mind that china has just emergered from 100+ years of war and invasion, the KMD left us with pratically nothing (most african nations were probably richer then china at the time). and because of it, tens of thousands if not millions died of starvation in the PRC (poor management and unsuccessful reforms also played a big part, but the fact that the PRC only has abt $1 in the bank didnt help things much).
and anyways, it was muturally accepted (ie, both taiwan and the PRC agreed on it) that taiwan was a part of china. they agreed to that and signed treaties with us, so its not like we’re just laying claim to an independent nation as say, what the US is doing to iraq.
” am in the process of trying to become a Mexican citizen. And yes Im very concerned that the mainland Chineese economy is going to empoverish the Mexican economy. Ofcourse I dont want Mexico to remain a source of labor for other countrys, Id like to see industrial development here. But until that happens, Id like to see a good level of minimum living standards for factory labor. Believe it or not, I AM actually concerned about Chineese industrial development more than their labor competition. If it wasnt China making it difficult for Mexico now, it could easily be somewhere else, Africa for example.”
nice to see that u are actually quite truthful and graceful abt some things, guess i was wrong abt u, and sorry if i went too far abt mexico in my last post.
but the fact is china’s industrial development is benefiting a great deal from our cheap labour. i must admit, it doesnt feel good at all to see chinese being exploited (which is pretty much what happens), but do remeber that no one forced those ppl to work in sweatshop or force them to accpet the low wages that they take. if anything, the authorities are trying to stop or at least reduce the floow of migrant workers from the rural areas.
By: Arabella-Cox - 24th June 2003 at 05:57
…
equally fair, this post is all about propaganda…if you claim your’s right then so can i claim otherwise. Ha…the Guardian….
By: mixtec - 23rd June 2003 at 20:50
First you say this:
“as for ‘reuniting on equal terms’, well, with no disrespect, but ur a little nieve to think that’ll happen. NO nation or leader on earth would accept those therms if they were in the PRC’s shoes,”
And then you say this:
“we’re not asking them to just ‘junk their system of government/law and assimilate into this economic progression that the geniuses of PRC are planning’. ever hear of the ‘one nation two rules’ ‘thingy’? ppl like u were predicting that hong kong and marco would become communist armed camps where the ppl have to eat what they r given, do waht they are told and even take a pi$$ when they’re ordered. “
So which is it?
You say that PRC has a claim on Taiwan because chang ki shek (spelling?) stole money and resouces from the mainland? I guess the UK has a claim on current US wealth because the colonists took british resources when they claimed independance. Howabout money/resources Hitler took, or Napolean? I could probably give you a few a hundred examples of countries that have spit or been conquered in the past 200 years where one country could claim damages or money owed from another. This arguement carrys no weight.
I am in the process of trying to become a Mexican citizen. And yes Im very concerned that the mainland Chineese economy is going to empoverish the Mexican economy. Ofcourse I dont want Mexico to remain a source of labor for other countrys, Id like to see industrial development here. But until that happens, Id like to see a good level of minimum living standards for factory labor. Believe it or not, I AM actually concerned about Chineese industrial development more than their labor competition. If it wasnt China making it difficult for Mexico now, it could easily be somewhere else, Africa for example.
By: plawolf - 23rd June 2003 at 20:18
wachenroder:
very fair and accurate post, well done!
mixtec:
“Taiwan is an independant nation, they owe nothing to PRC. They have no obligation to give lip service to your provacations. PRC is the only one spewing retoric.”
actually, taiwan owns a hell of alot more to the PRC then what we’re asking of them. to fully understand the current stance of the PRC u need a history lesson.
the guo min dong or KMD was a US back dictatorship that oppressed its ppl while bowed to foreign invaders, it used its best troops to try to quash political opponents while ordering its troops in mancheria to ‘not resist’ even when they were being fired upon by invading japanese troops. the ultamate irony for china in WWII was that much of the weapons japan used to invade the coastal regions of china were weapons left behind by fleeing KMD soilders as they retreated without a fight (with the exceptions when brave units disobayed orders and stood to fight).
when the KMD finally decided to fight (they were forced into it because jiang jie shi (KDM dictator) was kidnaped and forced to sign a treaty with the chinese communists by his own generals who were furious with his actions), it was already too late, much of the KMD’s and the chinese communists best troops have already died fighting each other and japan have gained a strong foothold in northern china, also, much of the natural barriers in north china were given up without a fight, leaving chinese infentry defending open country against japanese tanks and aircraft.
when japan surrandered in 45, the KMD quickly went back on its old path of trying to silence all opposition and started the chinese cival war, but in the end they were totally defeated by a poorly armed pesent army who was back by the ppl of china. the remanents of the KMD fled to taiwan, but not before looting the nation of everything of value ($$$, gold, silver, antiques, heavy machinary) and destroying much of what they could not take with them. taiwan’s prosperity of today is built on the collective wealth that belonged to all chinese. so its little wonder that taiwan’s GDP ‘puts your 1 billion people to shame’.
and BTW, taiwan isnt an independent nation, they could have become a truely independent nation anytime during the past 40 years, but if they did that, then they wouldnt have a case to ‘retake the mainland’ now would they? the greed of the KMD put them in the position they are in now, we are just following the rules of the many treaties that taiwan signed with us specifically pointing out that there is only one china and that taiwan is an inseperable part of china.
and anyways, is not like we’re asking all that much of taiwan.
“And there you have it! Taiwaneese just have to junk their system of government/law and assimilate into this economic progression that the geniuses of PRC are planning, to become the democratic and capalist wonder that plawolf says it will be.”
thats just the kind of garbage that i was refering to abt taiwan misleading their ppl and indeed the world, abt what reunification would mean for the ppl of taiwan.
we’re not asking them to just ‘junk their system of government/law and assimilate into this economic progression that the geniuses of PRC are planning’. ever hear of the ‘one nation two rules’ ‘thingy’? ppl like u were predicting that hong kong and marco would become communist armed camps where the ppl have to eat what they r given, do waht they are told and cant even take a pi$$ without permission.
in reality, little would change in taiwan, the laws wouldnt change nor the economy. if anything, life for the ordinary taiwanese would get better after reunification, not worse. after all, they would not need to pay extortionary prices for foreigne (american) weapons, they would enjoy unlimited access to the massive makert of china and would be abt to take fully advantage of the cheap labour across the straits (things the TAIWANESE government currently do not allow). for many who work and/or do business in the PRC, they would enjoy a much shorter jorney time between taiwan and the mainland and direct trnsportation links would also allow ppl with reletives on each side to visit each other much more easily. the only significant changes would be a new flag and new leaders (we probably wont want chen and his cronnies around after reunification, thats why they’re so opposed to it).
“All I seem to hear from China are flowery discriptions about “progress” being made and the countrys need to “maintain unity and order”.
Ill admit, I dont know what the political, social, econmic realitys are right now for the PRC, but I am getting tired of hearing things like:
“what is important is that while china’s social and economic systems still have many flaws that need to be ironed out, we are doing exactly that. just look at the progress we have made already. in little more then two decades, we have transformed china from a poor and backward secretive communist state, not very unlike the n.korea of today to the prosperous and vibrent nation of today, and china is still changing for the better with every day passed, to become a more open and free nation. it is not incredible at all to predict that in another 20 years china could become the most open, free and prosprous nation in asia.”
This is just a bunch of hot air that anyone could spout about any country, do you mind giving some specifacs?”
all u hear are ‘flowery discriptions about “progress” being made’ because that is the case. china has, and still is undergoing massive changes socially and economically. i guess all those picture of modern, prosperous cities in china are all photoshop fakes and that the entire population of china is forced into slave labour camps to produce ‘dirt cheap TVs for u’ is that it?
“Ill admit, I dont know what the political, social, econmic realitys are right now for the PRC, but I am getting tired of hearing things like:…”
well, if that were the case, then how can u be so bloody sure of what things are not like in china?
at first i was a little puzzled by all ur misconseptions and hatred of china, but then it hit me, ur from mexico arent u? it all make sence now, u dont like china cos chinese goods are taking all the business away from mexican goods. after all, why should ppl have to pay $XXX to get their goods from mexico when they can get the same quality products from china for a fraction of the price. hence all the refernces to ‘sweatshops’ and ‘dirt cheap TVs’ etc.
well, for ur information, there were no sweatshops in china until we went down ur capitalist road (we were always criticised and hated for being ‘red commies’, now u dont like it when we’re trying to be capitalist like u, there is just no pleasing u is there?), and ‘dirt cheap TVs’ is a good thing for the vast majority of ppl, are u trying to imply that chinese products are ‘inferior’ to ur mexican ones just cos we sell ours cheaper?
dont try to pick a bone with us just cos u priced urselves out of the market, after all, u had a 30 years head start, its not our fault if u didnt used that time wisely.
“You want stupid? This is stupid:
“but thats beside the point, a country is not like ur hair, u cant just decide to change it today and have it done by tommorrow. transition from one social and economic system to another is a long and arduaus process, if u rush into it and try to change the nation overnight they u’ll end up like the former USSR. the ‘years of needless struggle’ is not needless at all, if u try to do away with those years, u’ll just end up having to go through many more years of struggle.”
Taiwan is supposed to “unify” with this kind of thinking?”
care to explain how that is ‘stupid’? name me one nation that tranformed from a communist state to a capitalist one overnight (or vise versa) and ended with anything but a desaster, never mind being as successful or prosperous as china. just cos u cant understand sth doesnt make it ‘stupid’.
“Now this one really kills me:
“also, i doubt that taiwan’s leaders are in the same league as the PRC’s, almost all of china’s top leaders are from qing hua or bei da (china’s equivilent to oxford and cambridge/ harverd and yal(spellings)).”
plawolf, Im glad your country has all these qing hua graduates running things, we’ll definately wont have a shortage of dirt cheap tv sets and radios with these guys “maintaining order”.”
i’m also glade we have ppl like Hu in charge, after all, the only thing worse then selling tvs and radios at ‘dirt cheap prices’ is selling the same tvs and radios at prices that are so high that no one would touch them. 😉
“sorry, but you can push this on someone else, I dont trust you as a source for what 1.3 bn people in China want.”
yeah, what do i know, all i did is live and grow up there, fox is much more reliable, we should all listen to the teachings of the fox network, anyone who says fox is wrong is anti-capitalist and should be sent to guantanamo bay for re-education. 😀
“Then why dont you try and opening up the internet in China so the people can speak for themselves instead of having people like you speak for them?”
er, i dont run things in beijing, sure, i think china’s internet should be more open, so that more ppl from china can tell ppl like u how totally wrong u r abt china.
mixtec, ur last post was just a poorly disgised attempt to insult and degrade china, and if u dont show signs of being willing to engage in a serious debate based on merits, facts and logical arguments, i really dont see any point in responding to ur posts any more, cos i wont be abt to change ur view of china no matter what i do (short of flying u off to china to see for urself, yea, like that’ll happen), cos u just wouldnt take any of it in.
By: WACHENR0DER - 23rd June 2003 at 06:37
putting aside the PRC’s foreign policies as I too feel that if the Taiwanese want independance, than they shall have it…
Your brand of capitalism/democracy sounds just as corny as the quote above. All I seem to hear from China are flowery discriptions about “progress” being made and the countrys need to “maintain unity and order”.
Yeah.. China has often made alot of over statements on its economy and society especially during the Mao era, but this rhetoric has decreased during the Reformer’s era, no longer do you see things like “great leap forward” or “hundred flowers campaign” after the 80s occuring often. I wouldn’t say china is democratic but it’s embraced capitalism more or less.
what is important is that while china’s social and economic systems still have many flaws that need to be ironed out, we are doing exactly that. just look at the progress we have made already. in little more then two decades, we have transformed china from a poor and backward secretive communist state, not very unlike the n.korea of today to the prosperous and vibrent nation of today, and china is still changing for the better with every day passed, to become a more open and free nation. it is not incredible at all to predict that in another 20 years china could become the most open, free and prosprous nation in asia.”
Okay this is going to be long.. but based on what I’ve read in Brugger and Reglars “politics, economy and society in contemporary china” it would appear that the PRC did not seriously consider changing it’s economy system to the capitalist mode until the late 60’s, 70’s when China opened up to the world.
To put it bluntly when the leaders of China visited Korea, Hong Kong and Singapore they were shocked that the “inferior koreans” had a better economy, and as well as Hong Kong, Singapore and Taiwan who were “the same blood”. Which made them finally realize that it was their own policies that kept them stagnating. But because the Maoists (those who followed Mao’s policies) were overall conservative towards the current policies, the economy did not change much until Deng Xiao Ping (a reformer who was a rival of Mao and the Maoists) pretty much forced his way to the top by skillfully eliminating the power of the Maoists within the Communist party.
Although a bit reluctant, he experimented with the idea of open market and capitalism on a few select cities in 79, all of which were in Southern China.. these cities were Shen Zhen (right across of Hong Kong), Zhuhai, Shantou, Hainan, and Xiamen (right across Taiwan). As a result of this, within years, the province of Guang Dong (where these cities are located at) went from being one of the poorest to one of the richest. Eventually Deng opened up all the coastal cities, and eventually in the rural side, the communal system was abolished and land transferred back to private hands.
As a result of open market there were several problems.
1. State owned factories could not compete with foreign companies who oftened paid better, produced better quality goods, etc. As a result state owned factories had to lay off people (and in several cases close down). Those who depended on the communist system of welfare and pension were screwed and many who were unemployed lacked the skills foreign companies wanted. As a result there is, and still is much unemployment in numerous areas.
2. Prior to the Deng period, the Communist government would try to control the flow of rural people to the urban areas. with the relaxment of migration (it still does exist though), created the worlds LARGEST migrant work force.. numbering between 100-200 million. Who are these migrant work force? Mostly people from the rural side, often illiterate and/or lacked major skills looking for jobs and bouncing around from city to city. These are the people who most often are willing to work in the sweatshops or do menial labor. Also another related result is migration of rural women to the urban side, it is deep in their mentalities that it is better to live off in the city than in the country to do farm work. They too are often found working in sweat shops and menial jobs. When i visited Beijing to meet a friend, I was surprised to find how almost every building had an elevator girl working long hours, simply pushing buttons. I felt bad, but then many of them had weak grasp of CHinese literary language..what sort of jobs could they possibly find if they lacked skills (non prostitution jobs that is).
3. As a result of migrant workers.. there is increasing conflict between Urban people and migrant workers as they compete for jobs in the city.
4. the open market system has created a big class gap between urban people and rural people. Pretty much most people in the major cities live somewhat closely to their Taiwanese counter part while the migrant workers, several minority regions and rural regions live far behind.
In order to show how fast the urban areas have rapidly moved.. the area I was staying at did not exist 3 years ago, based on the testimonies of several american business men I knew who were working in China. Most of the cars, and there were many appeared to be at most 6 years old and it appeared that many people were able to afford Volkswagen and Audi (which are pretty abundant). Its a crying shame to see that they were driving cars nicer than what I drive and having better cell phones than mines. Supposedly 10 years ago, most of this traffic was mostly bikes. Much of the traffic was due to a majority of the streets in Beijing designed for bike traffic, which as a result, many streets were narrow, and there were hardly any areas for vehicle parking.
Wow, thanks for the lesson in democracy! Problem is that Taiwan a country of 18 million has an ecomomy that puts your 1 billion people to shame on a per capita level.
Taiwan has the benefit of having lesser mouths to feed as well as having good trading links with the worlds largest economy among others. Properly increasing the living standards of 1 billion will require stabilized population growth while the economy grows, but then that requires population control (the 1 child policy, which is applied to all Han Chinese and minorities that have a population of over 10 million, which is only the Zhuang minority).
Then why dont you try and opening up the internet in China so the people can speak for themselves instead of having people like you speak for them?
it’s not that hard trying to find more people from china and to ask them of their opinion. The internet there didn’t seem that restrictive.. I was able to go on Google there durign the time they were claiming to block it from that country. Of course I dont have the time to check every single site to see what was blocked and what isn’t.
By: mixtec - 23rd June 2003 at 01:24
“china dont treat taiwan like a ‘”defeated” renegade rebel province’, well, not for a few decades anyways.
glad to hear youve pared down on that
“the current fairly hardline stance by the PRC is a result of over a decade of repeated provacations and retoric by succesive pro-independence governments.”
Taiwan is an independant nation, they owe nothing to PRC. They have no obligation to give lip service to your provacations. PRC is the only one spewing retoric.
“its a long and very complicated list, but to sum things up, taiwan, well li deng hui (the former taiwanese ‘president’) and chen shui bian (the current ‘president’) first intensified arms purchases from abroad, then tried to go back on old treaties which specifically states that there is only one china and that taiwan is a part of china. couple that with proacative war games (in one taiwan did a mock bombing run to simulate an attack on the new three gorages dam) and retoric (‘one nation on both isde of straits’ speeches, thinly vailed threats made by high ranking taiwanese officals that taiwan would bomb hong kong if the PRC reacted to taiwan declearing independence, there is even talk of taiwan lauching a pre-emptive first strike to knock out the PRC’s ability to repond just before taiwan declears independence). with all that in mind, im actually suprised that the PRC hadnt taken more serious action then just ignoring chen. ( i strongly doubt any ‘western’ nation would have put up with half the things the PRC did).”
I would fight against hostile invaders just as anyone in any country would. What do you expect, that they lay down and let you control them?
“as for ‘reuniting on equal terms’, well, with no disrespect, but ur a little nieve to think that’ll happen. NO nation or leader on earth would accept those therms if they were in the PRC’s shoes,”
You’re nieve to think that Taiwan should except unequal terms
“do u think that china’s leaders are more stupid then all others?”
I dont call anyone stupid in a way that would imply that they have inferior mental capacity. I do call many people stupid who who make dumb choices and expect me to accept it as the only way of doing things. This quote illustrates my concept of stupidity:
“Trying to understand this is made harder by the wooden propaganda in which the Communist party is always “great, glorious and correct”.
Your brand of capitalism/democracy sounds just as corny as the quote above. All I seem to hear from China are flowery discriptions about “progress” being made and the countrys need to “maintain unity and order”.
Ill admit, I dont know what the political, social, econmic realitys are right now for the PRC, but I am getting tired of hearing things like:
“what is important is that while china’s social and economic systems still have many flaws that need to be ironed out, we are doing exactly that. just look at the progress we have made already. in little more then two decades, we have transformed china from a poor and backward secretive communist state, not very unlike the n.korea of today to the prosperous and vibrent nation of today, and china is still changing for the better with every day passed, to become a more open and free nation. it is not incredible at all to predict that in another 20 years china could become the most open, free and prosprous nation in asia.”
This is just a bunch of hot air that anyone could spout about any country, do you mind giving some specifacs?
or how about this:
“and anyways, taiwan’s economy isnt doing so well nowadays, shanghai is beating taiwan in almost every feild economically.”
yeah, Taiwan just cant compete with those sweatshops LMFAO
You want stupid? This is stupid:
“but thats beside the point, a country is not like ur hair, u cant just decide to change it today and have it done by tommorrow. transition from one social and economic system to another is a long and arduaus process, if u rush into it and try to change the nation overnight they u’ll end up like the former USSR. the ‘years of needless struggle’ is not needless at all, if u try to do away with those years, u’ll just end up having to go through many more years of struggle.”
Taiwan is supposed to “unify” with this kind of thinking?
Now this one really kills me:
“also, i doubt that taiwan’s leaders are in the same league as the PRC’s, almost all of china’s top leaders are from qing hua or bei da (china’s equivilent to oxford and cambridge/ harverd and yal(spellings)).”
plawolf, Im glad your country has all these qing hua graduates running things, we’ll definately wont have a shortage of dirt cheap tv sets and radios with these guys “maintaining order”.
which leads to this kind of thinking:
“while china’s leaders are not elected, the large majority to the 1.3 bn chinese like and support them, especially hu jin tao (the new chinese president). but few on the mainland have much warm feelings towards chen and co, even if the government offered chen china’s No2 postion, the ppl would not stand for it ( yes, even china’s leaders have to pay close attention to what the ppl want).”
sorry, but you can push that on someone else, I dont trust you as a source for what 1.3 bn people in China want.
And as to:
“1) lack of understanding about what ‘reunificantion’ really means.”
I suppose this is what it means then:
“florida has a GDP higher then most nations, do u suggest that bush should listen to the opinons of the florida govener before making a decision? after all, the florida governer was elected by the ppl of florida, and florida has a legal and economic system that is distinctly different in many ways from all other parts of the USA……”
Wow, thanks for the lesson in democracy! Problem is that Taiwan a country of 18 million has an ecomomy that puts your 1 billion people to shame on a per capita level.
But the Taiwaneese can rest assured because:
“as china becomes richer and more like the west, more and more ‘taiwanese’ are now begining to feel that being chinese may not be as bad as they though, and so more and more ppl are supporting reunification. that is why the ‘one china’ principle was never a problem for the taiwan government before”
And there you have it! Taiwaneese just have to junk their system of government/law and assimilate into this economic progression that the geniuses of PRC are planning, to become the democratic and capalist wonder that plawolf says it will be.
Youve certainly swayed my vision of China, I certainly wont fall for those stereotypes you list below LMFAO
2) lack of knowledge abt what china is really like. most still hold the same steriotypes and cliches as those in the west. this state of ‘misunderstanding’ is not helped by the taiwan governments manipulation of the press and blocking of mainland television and radio stations (didnt hear abt that on CNN did u?).
3) the image of china as percived by the west. because of the ‘poorness’ and ‘backwarderness’ that many in the west automatically association with the word ‘china’ many ppl from taiwan that go abroad find that they are treated with more respect if they refered to themselves as ‘taiwanese’ instead of ‘chinese’.
4) the extensive government programs run by the taiwanese government to try to differentiate ‘taiwanese’ from ‘chinese’ and to try to build their own ‘national indentity'(taiwanese schoolkids are now tought lessons designed to promote taiwanese independence).
“but as china become more prospurous and open, and as world opions of china start to change, these factors are having an ever decreasing effect.”
Then why dont you try and opening up the internet in China so the people can speak for themselves instead of having people like you speak for them?
“what i find most ironic and even a little funny is that the PRC is not the one desperate to find a quick solution(as many western media seem to suggest), since, time is on our side.”
time is on our side too. Thanks again for the cheap tv sets.
By: plawolf - 22nd June 2003 at 22:35
about taiwan
mixtec:
no disrespect, but ur post seems to betray ur lack of understanding on this very complicated matter.
“I have to say Im puzzled about China treating Taiwan as a “defeated” renegade rebel province rather than reuniting with a prosperous 1st world nation on equal terms. “
china dont treat taiwan like a ‘”defeated” renegade rebel province’, well, not for a few decades anyways. the current fairly hardline stance by the PRC is a result of over a decade of repeated provacations and retoric by succesive pro-independence governments.
its a long and very complicated list, but to sum things up, taiwan, well li deng hui (the former taiwanese ‘president’) and chen shui bian (the current ‘president’) first intensified arms purchases from abroad, then tried to go back on old treaties which specifically states that there is only one china and that taiwan is a part of china. couple that with proacative war games (in one taiwan did a mock bombing run to simulate an attack on the new three gorages dam) and retoric (‘one nation on both isde of straits’ speeches, thinly vailed threats made by high ranking taiwanese officals that taiwan would bomb hong kong if the PRC reacted to taiwan declearing independence, there is even talk of taiwan lauching a pre-emptive first strike to knock out the PRC’s ability to repond just before taiwan declears independence). with all that in mind, im actually suprised that the PRC hadnt taken more serious action then just ignoring chen. ( i strongly doubt any ‘western’ nation would have put up with half the things the PRC did).
as for ‘reuniting on equal terms’, well, with no disrespect, but ur a little nieve to think that’ll happen. NO nation or leader on earth would accept those therms if they were in the PRC’s shoes, do u think that china’s leaders are more stupid then all others?
“Taiwan is an industrialized nation that competes on an equal level with the likes of Japan, Korea, USA, Germany, etc, etc. I know its a hard pill to swallow, but if China would align itself to Taiwans government and laws, they would eliminate years of needless struggle to convert to being a free market society.”
florida has a GDP higher then most nations, do u suggest that bush should listen to the opinons of the florida govener before making a decision? after all, the florida governer was elected by the ppl of florida, and florida has a legal and economic system that is distinctly different in many ways from all other parts of the USA……
and anyways, taiwan’s economy isnt doing so well nowadays, shanghai is beating taiwan in almost every feild economically.
as for ‘align itself to Taiwans government and laws, they would eliminate years of needless struggle to convert to being a free market society.’
well, taiwan’s systems may be better then the current systems the PRC is using, but taiwan’s systems are far from perfect themselves, if china wanted to just ‘copy+paste’ a better social and economic model onto china, we would choose sinapore over taiwan anyday.
but thats beside the point, a country is not like ur hair, u cant just decide to change it today and have it done by tommorrow. transition from one social and economic system to another is a long and arduaus process, if u rush into it and try to change the nation overnight they u’ll end up like the former USSR. the ‘years of needless struggle’ is not needless at all, if u try to do away with those years, u’ll just end up having to go through many more years of struggle.
what is important is that while china’s social and economic systems still have many flaws that need to be ironed out, we are doing exactly that. just look at the progress we have made already. in little more then two decades, we have transformed china from a poor and backward secretive communist state, not very unlike the n.korea of today to the prosperous and vibrent nation of today, and china is still changing for the better with every day passed, to become a more open and free nation. it is not incredible at all to predict that in another 20 years china could become the most open, free and prosprous nation in asia.
“There is nothing to fear of Taiwan being some kind of dominating power, if indeed there was complete integration between the two nations. You cant compare Taiwan with Hong Kong either. Hong Kong has always just been a trading city, not a self sufficient nation.”
there never was the fear abt taiwan ‘retaking the mainland’, its just that no taiwanese leader could ever have the right to govern half of the PRC.
while china’s leaders are not elected, the large majority to the 1.3 bn chinese like and support them, especially hu jin tao (the new chinese president). but few on the mainland have much warm feelings towards chen and co, even if the government offered chen china’s No2 postion, the ppl would not stand for it ( yes, even china’s leaders have to pay close attention to what the ppl want).
also, i doubt that taiwan’s leaders are in the same league as the PRC’s, almost all of china’s top leaders are from qing hua or bei da (china’s equivilent to oxford and cambridge/ harverd and yal(spellings)).
as for the difference between taiwan and hong kong, well sure they’re massively different, but there are more similarities between the two then differences. the main reason many ppl in taiwan do not support reunificantion is partly due to the fact that taiwan’s authorities have tried their best to ‘darken the waters’ as it were. many simply do not know what the PRc is offering while other still believe that red guards would burst into their homes and ‘liberate’ their possetions or that millions of chinese imagints will flood into taiwan if the two reunited. is it a coincident that many of those who support reunification are businessmen that have lived and worked in the PRC, and that taiwan is the one dragging their feet over allowing direct transport links being astablished between the two?
all in all, the main factors stooping the taiwanese ppl supporting reunificantion are as follows:
1) lack of understanding about what ‘reunificantion’ really means.
2) lack of knowledge abt what china is really like. most still hold the same steriotypes and cliches as those in the west. this state of ‘misunderstanding’ is not helped by the taiwan governments manipulation of the press and blocking of mainland television and radio stations (didnt hear abt that on CNN did u?).
3) the image of china as percived by the west. because of the ‘poorness’ and ‘backwarderness’ that many in the west automatically association with the word ‘china’ many ppl from taiwan that go abroad find that they are treated with more respect if they refered to themselves as ‘taiwanese’ instead of ‘chinese’.
4) the extensive government programs run by the taiwanese government to try to differentiate ‘taiwanese’ from ‘chinese’ and to try to build their own ‘national indentity'(taiwanese schoolkids are now tought lessons designed to promote taiwanese independence).
but as china become more prospurous and open, and as world opions of china start to change, these factors are having an ever decreasing effect.
what i find most ironic and even a little funny is that the PRC is not the one desperate to find a quick solution(as many western media seem to suggest), since, time is on our side.
as china becomes richer and more like the west, more and more ‘taiwanese’ are now begining to feel that being chinese may not be as bad as they though, and so more and more ppl are supporting reunification. that is why the ‘one china’ principle was never a problem for the taiwan government before, but it is now; that is why taiwan is buying much more arms then before and holding many more war games; that is why the ‘taiwan independence’ issue has suddenly become a priority after nearly 4 decades since taiwan become a de-facto independent nation.
the facts suggest that in a few years or decades, the taiwan ppl would want to become a real part of china again if the status quo was maintained. the facts also indicate that some taiwanese (often those with the most to gain from ‘taiwanese independence’ or the most to loose from reunification) also realise this, and are trying all they can to make taiwan a truely independent nation while they still can, so naturally this is unacceptable to the PRC. u can mark my words, if chen and co really crosses the line and declears independence, then there can only be war, and i really dont want to see that, so im firmly against anyone and everyone that supports ‘taiwanese independence’.
By: mixtec - 22nd June 2003 at 18:14
I will say that american press usually reports about “capatalist success storys” or about protests and human rights of the lower class, so there is no clear picture of what day to day life is like in mainland china. I dont want to dig up any kind of debate that went on in the last thread about china, but I have to say Im puzzled about China treating Taiwan as a “defeated” renegade rebel province rather than reuniting with a prosperous 1st world nation on equal terms. Taiwan is an industrialized nation that competes on an equal level with the likes of Japan, Korea, USA, Germany, etc, etc. I know its a hard pill to swallow, but if China would align itself to Taiwans government and laws, they would eliminate years of needless struggle to convert to being a free market society. There is nothing to fear of Taiwan being some kind of dominating power, if indeed there was complete integration between the two nations. You cant compare Taiwan with Hong Kong either. Hong Kong has always just been a trading city, not a self sufficient nation.
By: keltic - 22nd June 2003 at 13:44
Thanks for posting this really informative article. We usually receive biased information from all sides, which makes us to have clitches and prejudices of other countries.
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June 22, 2003 at 12:51 pm