Old Europe

RE: Same old Europe

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 27-01-03 AT 11:24 AM (GMT)]

all i’ll say to america its up to eac antion ot decide and
america should saty out of it

if we (uk) deicde to go to war then great, if the french or
germans don’t (any germany is the only place with a popular
mandate not to go) then its up to them

all i’ll say to america its up to each nation to
decide and
america should stay out of it

now i’ve translted my druken mis-typings (i was also very tired that night) do you get the point ? as well as it beign an election year, its what the people on the ground, in that country, want.

edit – screwed up on the BB code

rabie :9

RE: The dumb and dumber show

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 26-01-03 AT 02:45 AM (GMT)]”Perhaps Rumsfeld was suggesting that the reason that the ‘old Europe” is so tolerant of Saddam Insane is that it has forgotten what it is like to live under a dictatorship. “

I think the last few American presidents have reminded the world about dictatorships…

“Given Germany’s reprehensible record of aggressive behavour, everyone will be content to see it remain passive on military issues. “

The pain and suffering Germany has both inflicted and received is beyond what america and its 3 3/4 thousand dead from 11/9 could ever imagine. The fact that both Germany and two of its major victims (France and Russia) are against the war would perhaps suggest some obvious facts but imperialist America is right… it is always right… go on… invade. War has always been wonderful to economies. Russia will lose 7bn in money owed by Iraq and France will lose some money as well, but if you ask me Saddam was probably not going to pay Russia anyway… a debt to a superpower can gain their support where a debt from a superpower can be forgotten in a heartbeat (ie keeping the Iranians in check for a decade).

“Perhaps he feels that support for Iraq will assist German companies to secure additional oil and arms deals with Saddam. “

Or perhaps he thinks American foreign policy that seems to consist of bombing countries into submission and forcing unrealistic peace treaties upon the factions and then moving to the next problem before anyone notices the last band aid didn’t work is slightly flawed.
(Kosovo, Afghanistan, OBL,… have they done anything right recently?

RE: Same old Europe

Well to give you the real reason for Germany´s standpoint :

– Election time in two of our federal states.

Mr. Schröders Social Democrats barely won the last general election by playing the pacifist and anit-american card. Now, only a short time later, things are looking bad for them. Unemployment is high, economical data is bad, health sector need reform, social sector need reform -> Put short about 75% of the germans are unhappy with the work by the social democrat / green government.

The latest figures expected the elections in the two federal countries to end with a clear victory for the Christian Democrats, who are in the oposition in the german parliament.

So the Social Democrats and the Greens decided to make these 2 elections, elections about war or peace. You must know that the Chrisitan Democrats are saying, that Germany should decide if we are to support the war or not, when the weapons inspectors give their report. They also say that an active german participation would be limited to medical help and the special troops for ABC warfare. Fighting troops are out of the question. A very reasonable position imo.

So the fact is, that Mr. Schröder is using the fear of a war as a last straw before his party gets defeated in the elections.

(Elp the accident in Afghanistan has nearly no influence in the Iraki problem. The government as played it on a very low level, because otherwise it would become obvious that they are sending german troops into the missions with equipment, that can not be considered as save, because of the age. The reductions in the budget for the Bundeswehr can be linked to the accident and that would mean bad press for them.)

(Another side note : In germany the christian religions are planning for a peace demonstration against the war for early next months. Then we will see the pictures of a friendly smiling SH with a peace dove in the background. Can anyone imagine more irony??)

The French government sees that it can get support from Germany for an anit war standpoint. Furthermore they feel they can play worldpower again now. And one should not forget the France had close links the SH regime during the IPGW. Any replacement government would be more leaning toward the US and the UK, so they would loose the last country in the region, where they have any influence left.

In my opinion I´m against the war there. I´m sure that constant weapons inspection will be sufficent to keep any WMD threat from Irak on a extremely low level. I think the removing of SH from power is not worth the blood of a german soldier or a british or an american or any soldier for that matter. If Mr. Bush could come up with any real evidence for the threat SH poses, then it might be different. At the moment I think this war is a family affair – not more.

RE: Same old Europe

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 25-01-03 AT 04:18 AM (GMT)]Rabie – looking at your last post do they have an internet connection at your pub ? 😀

Now for one thing I love Germany and I can understand some of the stuff especially since they just lost those soldiers in that terrible helo accident in Afghanistan a while back. So I certainly can sympathize with that view. That was a big loss and is timely to answering the question: Do you want to lose Germany boys in a conflict? Is it worth that kind of sacrifice? The flip side of that is I have nothing but contempt for Greens and Socialists.

———————————–

Here is some entertaining commentary from
http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20030124-16809993.htm

Sheryl Crow

Diana West

It’s one thing for a pop star like Sheryl Crow — sorry, an “activist for recording artist’s rights” like Ms. Crow — to wear her gross political naivete across her T-shirted chest in black sequins that spell “WAR IS NOT THE ANSWER.” She had this mini-manifesto “specially made,” as the Associated Press reported, for her appearance last week on the American Music Awards. And why not? Ms. Crow had hardly exhausted the subject with her last rejoinder to the Bush administration’s Iraq policy — another white T-shirt emblazoned with “I DON’T BELIEVE IN YOUR WAR, MR. BUSH!” worn during a December performance on “Good Morning, America.”
And imagine, there was still more to say. “I think war is based in greed and there are huge karmic retributions that will follow,” she explained to the AP. “I think war is never the answer to solving any problems. The best way to solve problems is not to have enemies.”
Ah, so. War is greed (tell the “greatest” generation), war is never the answer (tell George Washington, Adolph Hitler and the emir of Kuwait), and the way to avoid it is not to have enemies (tell the shrink).
Mass politicking by uninformed celebrities is not without harm, but the world isn’t really in trouble until the shallow slogans of the sound stage start to echo and reverb across the world stage. Which’ll never happen, right? Take another sound check. This past week, France and Germany may have appeared to unveil their joint anti-war policy on Iraq, but what La France and its warm up act Germany really did was kick off their 2003 international tour, “War Is Not the Answer.”
It began at the United Nations. In what The Washington Post called “a diplomatic version of an ambush,” France threw itself into the spokes of a Security Council exchange on terrorism to declare its opposition to war on Iraq. Concluding that such a war would bring death, regional instability (the instability of assorted brutal dictatorships?) and an increase in terrorism (more on that below), French Foreign Minister Dominique de Villepin announced that “nothing today justifies envisaging military action.” Germany followed suit and then some: “Do not expect that Germany will agree to a resolution that legitimizes war,” German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder told a crowd in Germany.
Funny how this Franco-German front coincides with the 40th anniversary celebration of the Elysee friendship treaty between the two nations. According to Cybercast News Service, ever-increasing Franco-German chumminess is said to include proposals “for regular joint cabinet meetings and a unified system of citizenship and law for the two countries.” There have even been calls for a “Franco-German Union” with “common foreign, security and economic policies.”
Bienvenue/willkommen to the Franco-German Union …against a war on Iraq. Interesting continental coalition, that. A London Times analysis explains it this way: “For these two countries, what legitimizes a united Europe is the complete rejection of war in all its forms. If you base your whole philosophy as a European Union on that, then ultimately you are going to get into a problem with a world that sees war as an instrument of diplomatic change.”
But is pure pacifism really the “whole philosophy” of these scaly Old World cynics? Only a pop star in sequins could buy that. Still, there’s more of the Crow doctrine in this Franco-German Union than meets the eye. Remember the “huge karmic retributions” Ms. Crow spoke of? Both France and Germany cite a potentially heightened risk of Islamic terrorism as a reason not to go to war in Iraq, a notion that should perplex the average citizen of the Free World now living with an already heightened risk (and reality) of Islamic terrorism—without going to war in Iraq.
And remember Ms. Crow’s secret to peace being “having no enemies”? On this point, it’s worth considering what historian Bat Ye’or reminds us of in “Islam and Dhimmitude”: that France’s historic tilt toward the most radical elements in the Arab world—for example, its role in lending respectability to the PLO, its opposition to the Egyptian-Israeli peace treaty, its historic support of the Ba’ath parties in Syria and Iraq—seems to have deflected much of the Islamic terrorism that has beleaguered the United States and Israel. In other words, France has had “no enemies” likely to fight jihad against her. And she’ll do anything, it seems, to keep it that way. According to the London Telegraph, the French government is now considering trashing a bedrock principal of the French Republic — the separation of church and state — to fund the building of mosques to keep France’s second-largest religion from falling “further” under the sway of radical, foreign (and particularly Saudi Arabian) powers.
Suddenly, Franco-German “pacifism” begins to look like something else: lying down and playing dead. It keeps the karmic retributions away — maybe — but it doesn’t look too good on a T-shirt.

Diana West is a syndicated columnist. Her column appears on Fridays.

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RE: Same old Europe

“Why should we find any solution for other countries affairs”

Gosh! Why didn’t I think of that?

Regards

Sauron

RE: Same old Europe

all i’ll say to america its up to eac antion ot decide and america should saty out of it

if we (uk) deicde to go to war then great, if the french or germans don’t (any germany is the only place with a popular mandate not to go) then its up to them

rabie :9

RE: Same old Europe

Sauron why should we try to find any solution for other countries affairs?. I am for the ignoring tactics to make them come back to the civilized circle. I don´t think they dare to anything stupid, they just want a bit of atenttion. Let them find their way.

RE: Same old Europe

Guys

After you get over thinking up additional ways to act insulted about the US defence secretary’s remarks about the new Europe, perhaps I could raise a point about the old Europe.

Most of it seem to share some of the concerns of the US re Iraq and SH in particular. Why then, was this not a issue with those same countries before the US President made his evil remark? Why were they not advancing the re-instatement of the weapons inspections by the UN in Iraq then?

It took Bush long enough to recognise that there was unfinished buiness with SH and Iraq, but eventually he did. Where was Europe on the issue then? I don’t recall any active diplomatic action by Europe or anyone else, nor any push to get the issue elevated on the UN’s agenda. This was never just a US problem.

In addition, where are the European solutions to the North Korean issue?… apart from blaming the US that is.

Regards

Sauron

RE: Old Europe

Actually Keltic, we are all old Europeans. Why, because our continent and each individual nation has got a history, like most countries in the world. In America, they are forgetting there was a world before 4th july 1776.

The remarks made by Rumsfeld should be taken seriously. Even though I support a Europe that can act as one, everyone knows that the real engine behind this continent is the Franco-German one. I`m glad that my country backs the opinion of Paris and Berlin, rather than the so called new Europe.

Very smart of Rumsfeld to insult 160 million Europeans directly, but as a supporter of the Paris-Berlin axis, I should also feel insulted. I`m supprised how calm both leaders stayed after hearing these remarks. Probably because they already gave up the idea hearing something reasonable from the west of the atlantic, no sorry, I mean west of the North Sea (sorry Ireland).

RE: Old Europe

BME ,

Just make a test with a panel of amaericans and ask them to place
the major european capitals on a blind map.

I can promise that you will have a good laugh .
Remember Bush last visit in Spain, he didn’t have the courtesy to know the name of your prime minister. It doesn’t prevent those guys to be arrogant and to want to lead the world their own way …

That’s pathetic…. Fortunately the majority of American citizen are evrything but red necks .

RE: The dumb and dumber show

Seahawk

Given Germany’s reprehensible record of aggressive behavour, everyone will be content to see it remain passive on military issues. Perhaps, Herr Schroder should stick to trying to fix the German economy. Perhaps he feels that giving moral support to Saddam Insane will help.

Perhaps he feels that support for Iraq will assist German companies to secure additional oil and arms deals with Saddam.

Its odd to say the least, how a country with such strong pacifist views would give such a strong positive signal to the megelomaniac leader of a country which has started wars with his neighbours and so obviously want to continue, that says… hey we support you!

As for France, well as I heard someone say recently, well “the French are the French” and who really cares. They will continue to play both sides of the fence until they see which way the cat is going to jump and then wade in to claim a piece of the glory.

Rumsfeld has them both pegged pretty well. They are just going for the limelight because thats all they have to offer. No solutions just bad timing. Just another bottle of good French wine for both and another bottle of hair dye for ‘Herr’ Schroder!. 🙂

As far as Korea is concerned Seahawk, what would be your plan to deal this more dangerous situation? I am sure their are some folks here who would like to know.

Regards

Sauron

RE: Old Europe

Then, only the french and the germans are the Old Europe? wow….incredible… I´m just a spaniard then I must be an african, with this “great” way of thinking of our ¿european? ¿allies?

By the way the US could use perfectly the bases in Spain, Morón de la Frontera air base, and Rota aeronaval base, last time we enjoyed to see the B-52 detached in Moron (launching spanish aerial bombs from Expal over the republican guard).
There are rumors about send some of our Hornets to Turkey.

RE: Old Europe

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 24-01-03 AT 10:20 AM (GMT)]Rumsfeld probably means with the Old Europe, the Europe that will colonise America once again }>. We can`t help it, that America, from point of a philosopher, is 250 years behind of Europe. (Much hasn`t changed since Montesquieu in the US, really).

BTW, those eastern-bloc nations don`t support the United States because they feel sorry for the Iraqi people who suffer from the dictator known as Saddam, but just because they want to have money from the US and be less dependent on the EU instead. Problem is we can`t blame those nations for not agreeing with the EU on this, as the EU itself (Blair/Aznar) doesn`t have a real opinion.

I just wish one leader in Europe would have the balls to say: no, you ain`t gonna use our bases as hub (apart from the C-17s transporting the body bags, which, lets hope, will be as few as possible).

RE: The dumb and dumber show

Seahawk , you read my mind. 100% agree.

RE: The dumb and dumber show

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 24-01-03 AT 09:49 AM (GMT)]Well apart from the oil, why are Europe and the US suppposed to be involved in the Middle east ??

Saddam Hussein is bad dictator, but I think we can come up with a few regimes that were/are on the same level, yet their were/are friends of the US.

I think this all about oil and the family humilation that the Bushs have suffered, because after Daddy failed to remove Saddam, Saddam is still around when Bush “dump as a stone” junior takes over.

A war against Irak will only raise the potential of Islamic terrorism against the west. And I still have to see proof that SH is involved in the terror against the west.
I mean does anyone believe that he is a real threat to the west. Can you really imagine Irak´s army coming all the way to europe or making an amphibious landing in Florida ?? That is bullshit. The US only wants cheap oil, so that they can continue to pollute the atmosphere with CO2, like no other country in the world. Continue to drive these huge trucks, but we won´t pay with the blood of our soldiers for your oil.

I have always been supporting the US, but your current president is a nutcase imo. He is so focused on Irak, that he fails to see the real threats to the western world. Which are terrorism and religous fundamentalism. (and North Korea)
Although I think the german government is very bad at the moment (and I could do a very long rant about the things that make me angry) but refusing to fight a war in Irak is right. Let the weapons inspectors do their job and let them in as long as needed. If they need 10 years, then so be it. As long as they are in country, Irak won´t be able to built any WMDs. Force Irak into an open sky treaty with the Gulf states, that allows them to overfly Irak.

Norht Korea is much more dangerous the SH has ever been.

RE: The dumb and dumber show

ELP

No fly zone over southern France. 🙂 Good one!

Perhaps Rumsfeld was suggesting that the reason that the ‘old Europe” is so tolerant of Saddam Insane is that it has forgotten what it is like to live under a dictatorship. Unlike their eastern European brethren who have more recent experiences with the stalinist clones that held power throughout the former WAR PAC countries.

He is certainly smart enough to recognize the dismal timing of those two sharpies from France and Germany who chose to give Saddam all the encouragement he needs to keep defying the UN at the very moment that six middle east countries were demanding Iraq cooperate more fully and others are apparently encouraging him to leave Iraq. Saddam will be encouraged by these two a–holes.

Talk about ‘dumb and dumber’! They look pretty stupid putting their desire to poke the US in the eye, at the UN’s expense.

Regards

Sauron

RE: Old Europe

“I think when dealing with Hitler post 1940, “Containment” would have been the better option on how to deal with the then Nazi Germany . “

Yes, lets compare Bagdad to Berlin… after all both are so powerful and so well armed and so well positioned they could both take over the world… Yes, it all becomes clear… North Korea will be Bagdads Japan and take on the Pacific, while Saddams fearless forces rampage through the ME and then Africa and Europe.

Containment in Europe was tried by Britain who drew a line in the sand with Poland. Hitler stepped over that line and the war for the west started. In the gulf there are nofly zones and sanctions and many lines drawn in the sand. It seems the US and the UK (leaders anyway) want to shift the line till Saddam has stepped over it whether he moves or not.

Yes, I can see the comparison and am happy with my position.

RE: Old Europe

why are the Europeans so insistent on the Balkans? hypocricy.

RE: Old Europe

The US would not even have done that, were it not for Pearl Harbour.

RE: Old Europe

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 23-01-03 AT 11:35 PM (GMT)]You are right. I think when dealing with Hitler post 1940, “Containment” would have been the better option on how to deal with the then Nazi Germany . We would make a “no fly” zone out of Vichy France. }>