British withdrawal from Northern Ireland

RE: British withdrawal from Northern Ireland

handbag…………..no problem.

andrew……….i’m not from northern ireland, or from the republic.

I just have had verbal access to more than i should……

which, with some commonsense and tactical reality has filled gaps…..

hmmmmm tactical reality……………I like that!! lol

coanda

RE: British withdrawal from Northern Ireland

Interesting point of view .

Thanks Coanda

RE: British withdrawal from Northern Ireland

coanda where r u from, NI?

RE: British withdrawal from Northern Ireland

I’m sorry wombat, that particular comment was definitly not aimed at you, nor at anyone else. Its just easy for people looking in on the situation to find some ‘easy solution’ which is actually quite a poor way of going about things. In very much teh same vain as you experience in Australia, and other countries around the world.

I am more than happy to help enlighten people as to the NI situation, god knows its taken me long enough to get this far!

coanda

RE: British withdrawal from Northern Ireland

Thanks, guys, you have certainly provided some interesting feedback to my last post.

Coanda raised a couple of points I’d like to comment on. the first relates to his comment that, if Britain pulled out of N.I., you’d have the problem of all the immigrants trying to get out of the place. I can understand the point he makes, but as these people are British citizens, preferring to remain within the UK, I can’t see how you could refuse them entry. Obviously though, they would present a major problem with regards to housing and employment.

The second comment he made was reference to “an outsider, detached from the realities of this situation”.

True, as an Australian, I’m a long, long way from the problem, but I admitted in earlier posts on this subject that my knowledge of the matter was weak, which was why I posed the question. Thanks to Coanda, Mongu, Mixtec and a host of others, I have a much better appreciation of the situation and the history behind this problem.

However, as was shown by my other post a few weeks back about Australia’s migration problems, I suspect the same was true of others about our problems out here. I suspect I could say the same about UK, US or European members being remote from the realities of our situation out here. Whilst the numbers of immigrants is undoubtedly smaller than would be experienced if N.I. was abandoned by the UK, our immigration problems present us with conundrums which are not easy to deal with as well. (Coanda, please don’t think I am being argumentative about this – I respect your views and appreciate the information you have provided, it has helped to fill some very large gaps in my knowledge.)

One of the things which I have found most interesting about this post has been the almost universal support for Britain remaining in N.I. I honestly thought that support for withdrawal would have been greater. I can appreciate the problems this would raise, and had already thought that many citizens of N.I. would want to leave if withdrawal occurred.

I feel very sorry for both countries. I visited Britain a couple of years ago and fell in love with the place. As a citizen of a country with so many historic and cultural ties to Britain, but which has nothing like the internal strife that the Northern Irish situation causes, I cannot help wondering where and when it will all end. Obviously, foreign support for the IRA and splinter groups, doesn’t help. I continue to be amazed that two Christian religions can possess the hatred that has existed for so long. I have often wondered how Ian Paisley and his kin can have such powerful positions within the “politics” of the place, and foster such bigotry and hatred, when they are predominantly men of God.

I hate to admit that I will probably continue to see reports of violence in N.I. for some time to come.

Thanks again, guys.

Regards

Wombat

RE: British withdrawal from Northern Ireland

The UK does lots of trade with ROI. In fact I think that the UK is ROI’s biggest trading partner.

Coanda is right about ROI indifference to the problem and they certainly used to have a constitutional clause about wanting NI “back”. Not sure if this is still the case though.

What it still boils down to is that large numbers of people still romanticise about the IRA and give them money and help – the ROI and the US are the two biggest culprits. They need to control their people. I mean hypothetically, would UK forces be justified in murdering US or ROI citizens who fund the IRA? I’d say yes, they would be. If I gave a few hundred K to Al’Qaeda I would expect the FBI to knock on my door at the very least…

It exposes the big problem that countries rarely agree on who are terrorists and who are freedom fighters. And the “war on terror” retoric has just brushed this one under the carpet, an ill advised media-friendly move IMO.

RE: British withdrawal from Northern Ireland

You can all read some info about operations that take place against republican AND loyalist groups in books. These are however not accurate(for obvious reasons) and it is only the well known figures, which are in fact known at all.

The fact remains that whilst much of the british empire was colonial, Northern Ireland is not. It is our territory. Therefore there is no question that without a complete role reversal of home policy by the british government, sovereign territory will be defended by this country, from any external or internal threats.

That is why we will stay in Ireland,and never agree to how Republican movements wish to have the country run.

Some time ago you may have seen on TV, pictures of paramilitary groups disarming. This is however basically a token gesture, and does not show a majority of the paramilitary groups capability. It is more than likely that these groups deliberatly polled themselves to sift out the old/broken/suspect tagged weapons to hand into the security forces. There are at least two 50 cal sniper rifles that are still not accounted for, brought in from America. If Libyan assistance is anything to go by, one of the captured hauls had thousands of AK47’s.

What happenns if we do absolve ourselves of the situation in Northern ireland???

What happenns if we completely pull out of Northern Ireland?

For a start you’ll have an ‘immigration problem’ if you will. All those loyalists, who suddenly fear for their own safety are going to be wanting to go somewhere to get away from the republicans….. where? across the irish sea to liverpool, scotland and holyhead.

how do we control this?? we have enough of a problem with blind frenchman denying they are unable to stop refugees crossing the english channel via euro tunnel. British people here ,and some others will be well aware of the trouble and money needed to deal with this displaced population. so we can add possibly a hundred thousand more people to that problem, who will all need re accomodation, jobs, benefits, milk coupons…etc etc etc.

This is simple for an outsider, detached from the realities of this situation to find acceptable.

Should we pull out of northern ireland, its likley that the republicans will have a field day, setting up there own parliament and basically increasing sectarianism amongst the public.

Any one who thinks that peaceful harmony can be established if the uk security forces are pulled out are seriously misguided, and should wake up and smell the coffee. The increased bloodshed that the complete removal of british forces from NI could create is unimaginable.

Is Southern Ireland going to take responsibility for Northern Ireland with all of their problems?, do you seriously think they can be arsed to do this? do they have the money to do this? do they have the will power to do this?…..honestly?….no they havent. They arent especially interested in the slightest about the northern ireland ‘problem’ in the whole of the modern day troubles Eire has made few if no major moves to help resolve the paramilitary conflict. they have tried to crack down on smuggling across the border, other than that, they havent done very much. British or NI security forces need to seek permission to follow a chase of a ‘suspect’ terrorist into southern ireland, this is a lengthy time consuming process which inevitably means the loss of the ‘suspect’ terrorist. smuggling across the border is extremely easy, as those who read ‘bandit country’ will know. Prominent members of the Southern Armagh brigade own land that is both on northern irish soil and Eire Soil. as you can imagine smuggling across the border is hugely facilitated if you can drive across private farmland with the goods you are smuggling, under the cover of a bogus company set up.

These boundaries are soo poorly defined, (as with most countries) that more than one squaddie has been left on southern irish soil with his weapon, and arrested by the guarda for owning a lethal weapon!

Pulling out of Northern Ireland will also remove prime locations for inserting covert security forces multiplying the difficulty in logistics and money/manpower in inserting these vital assets.
Not being in Northern Ireland also reduces the ability to observe these paramilitary forces and gain intelligence on their modus operandi, and the people working for them. An increased need for covert operations would be required to maintain this intelligence…somthing that cant be taken from satellites.

And finally perhaps……we will get a further reduction in our armed forces…..NI is one less problem to deal with, which is no longer taking up such and such amount of equipment/time/people..so we dont need to keep that amount. AS i believe the shortsighted government think.

that is until the republicans decide to launch a new regime of attacks on the british mainland, and it is found expedious to redeploy to Northern Ireland for perhaps a greater escalation in conflict than seen in that country for nearly 90 years. This is a problem the Israeli’s are finding themselves having to deal with…and look at the trouble they get for that, and they arent hugely successful all the time. This, for the UK is an untenable position.

coanda

RE: British withdrawal from Northern Ireland

I think what it comes down to is that the english protestants of NI feel that NI is their country, theyve lived their over 300 years and are productive members of society there. Its not a question anymore of the UK leaving. Ive said before that it would be nice if the cath/prot could live/work seperately, but the existing economy is already intertwined. If they could address the greivances of the caths with some kind of affirmative action (US program for blacks being given a equal quota of jobs) then that would take the wind out of the sails for anyone who says its not fair. Im curious, Britain still does alot of bussiness with republic of Ireland dont they?

RE: British withdrawal from Northern Ireland

Wombat, withdrawal is NOT an option. NI is not a colony, it is part of our country. Anyone thiking otherwise is, realistically, pi**ing into the wind!

I can’t think of a solution, because each side is diametrically opposed to the other. The ironic thing is that they are identical people really. Loyalist/Republican terrorists are the same, they just use different execuses.

The only approach is to take the heat out of the situation. Firstly, terrorist funding must be removed (This means YOU, people of Boston and New York!!!). Secondly, the retoric must be hushed up. Religious people need to be gagged, because their words legitimise the feelings of certain people. Priests and Vicars are extremely influential in NI and as such, they should not be politicising. Until these bible bashing types get the point, gagging orders need to be slapped on them. The police need to form an “incitement to racial hatred” task force and arrest 20 or 30,000 yobs and stick them in 5 years of solitary. The guys threatening Neil Lennon (footballer from NI who plays for Celtic, the Catholic team from Glasgow) are good examples.

RE: British withdrawal from Northern Ireland

A) If the UK gives Norn Ireland to Ireland UVF,LVF,UFF,Red Hand Defenders etc will attack UK and Ireland.

B) If they dont the IRA will continue to attack.

C) THe main dispute is in Belfast, which i am only allowed to say so much on. What I can say is, the Catholics and Protestants live (in conflict areas) cloesly knit together.

This means that as long as they hate each other (fueled by their community leasder (which are on the Protestant side the UUP, DUP etc and people like Johnny “Mad Dog” Addair who is a member of the UVF and on the catholic side, SDLP, Sinn Fienn and the IRA)

There is no long term solution to problems in Northern Ireland as it has been leading up to this for many years now. Withdrawing Britsh would make no differance.

You can get an Irish passport if u live in UK and you dont need a passport because the UK and Ireland have a agreement regarding crossign the boarders.

The Police Force, PSNI – not RUC (Police Service of Northern Ireland), has been in trouble for a long time. These are to be feared to get worse as lots of officers have described the new chief constable, hugh orde – arrives in Sep 02, as in competant and “odd”.

THe army are at the highest levels and are they due to no police officer being available!

THe force needs new recruits but over 1000 catholic women who applied and lots of other prod/cath males failed medicals!

I hope this “in-lightens” you to Norn Ireland. Ill answer any more queries.

Glossary:

UVF – Ulster Volenter FOrce
UFF – Ulster Freedom Fighters
LVF – Loyalist Volenter Force
DUP – Democratic Unionist Party
UUP – Ulster Unionist Party
SLDP – Solical Democratic Labour Party

RE: British withdrawal from Northern Ireland

This topic has kicked off a fair bit of discussion, but given the information supplied so far, the question remains – should the UK pull out of Northern Ireland?

To add a further question to this topic, what benefit is there in the UK remaining in N.I.? What is the point in staying there if the cost is prohibitive and the likelihood of eternal peace is remote?

Understand that from 20,000 km away, the presentation on our media of the troubles in N.I. concentrates on the “newsworthy”, such as murders, riots, fights between various republican/loyalist groups and the police and other violent issues, without any explanation of the causes. I confess to being almost totally ignorant of the reasons for the violence or indeed, the UK’s determination to remain there. It doesn’t seem to be worth the trouble and I wonder what harm would be caused to the UK if it handed N.I. back to the Irish.

I would, however, like to thank a number of members of the board who have gone to some trouble to provide a good outline of the history behind the Irish problems. I am much the wiser thanks to their efforts.

Regards

Wombat

RE: British withdrawal from Northern Ireland

Belgium is a federation, do we have a president?!

RE: British withdrawal from Northern Ireland

A federation needs a President, Geforce! Haven’t we gone down this road before…

Whenever you read one of the SAS books, you can’t help but pity the poor IRA chaps who get dealt with! I think if we have international support (FBI – start arresting US terrorists!!!) and more pragmatism (The Brits mistreated the Irish hundreds of years ago, so they are allowed to become terrorists!!!) the IRA can be essentially cracked.

I see the Loyalists as just a reaction to the Republicans. They are as bad as them, but can probably be dealt with a bit more easily if we firstly remove the root cause – sympathy for terrorism.

RE: British withdrawal from Northern Ireland

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 23-08-02 AT 10:02 PM (GMT)]I think the UK should become a federal state, giving the Ires more independence. If Belgium wouldn’t have been federal, my god, we would probably be in the middle of a civil war right now. I don’t understand why the Uk never became federal.

RE: British withdrawal from Northern Ireland

different ethics mongu.

different way of going about doing things……

perhaps the most important thing about the eastern bloc etc was that very few people were allowed out and very few were allowed in, this gives you a captive audience and as such, they can be influenced by hearing only one side of the story. The public knew it was a crap way of life, but they also had nothing to compare with.

The difference in the eastern empire if it can be called that is the technology used to persuade the people who could in effect be watched 24 hours a day. This is different from british garrisons etc in india which provided ‘islands’ of united kingdomness (yeah i know thats a crap word), without actually being able to watch the public 24 hours a day frommore than justthe bastions of the garrison.

Back on the Ireland theme….

Some of you UK residents may have seen the troubles taking place in northern ireland recently, and how fear of sectarian violence can affect a family.

It now appears that the RUC as was is not capable of dealing with any surge in violence and the pictures in the news show how much the northern Irish situation can turn.

A Mr Mcglaughlin from Sein Fein made a statement to BBC 1 stating that sein fein is not doing anything more to stp this until all british rule is finished and they can deliberately affect how the police force of Northern ireland operates.

as you can see, sein fein is still after complete rule in Northern ireland and now it has been given an inch it seems it intends to take a mile.

The army have been brought in to patrol belfast, and on short alert to deal with any problems that escalate above that controlable by the police.

coanda

RE: British withdrawal from Northern Ireland

Going off at a tangent, I wonder why the Russians never learned the British lesson and persisted with a very oppressive Empire?

RE: British withdrawal from Northern Ireland

mixtec, thanks very much for copying that out of the book, it was worth your time and effort.

the same colonialisation as practised later on by the brits, this is the way all empires grow, and all of them fall.

coanda

RE: British withdrawal from Northern Ireland

Mixtec

Thanks for that info too. At least I know now where 1917 fitted into the picture. I remember the film, I think Liam Nielson? starred as Michael Collins. I haven’t seen it so I’ll check out the local video library.

Regards

Wombat

RE: British withdrawal from Northern Ireland

wombat- Michael Collins led a guerrila/terrorist war against the brittish durring WW1. The brittish sent troops to Ireland and suppressed the uprising, but made a treaty to allow Ireland to succeed. Under the terms, even though Ireland would be self ruling, they would still be a territory of England and Northern Ireland would still be under rule of England. Collins was later assasinated for this treaty being looked apon as a “sell out”. There was a movie made a few years back about Michael Collins life. You can also read more about him doing a web search.

RE: British withdrawal from Northern Ireland

Mixtec

Many thanks for the most interesting enlightenment on how the aggro in Ireland began. It is interesting to read that, at one stage, the English owned 85% of Ireland, with the part they didn’t own being the North. Now the situation has completely reversed. Anybody know how and when the situation changed, and England handed Eire back to the Irish? And why did they persist in remaining in the north?

When you read this history, it is very easy to understand why Irish hatred of the English can run so deep.

Regards

Wombat