Echelon

RE: Echelon

This may be of interest, found this just the other day.
Then found this post.

Echelon,Greece,N17.

http://www.mpa.gr/article.html?doc_id=286110

They may be listening.}>

RE: Echelon

Several “Echelon days” have been promoted in the past where people were encouraged to say stuff like Bomb, Lewinsky, billion dollar deal, Airbus, Clinton. Kill the US president etc on the phone or email/fax etc.

RE: Echelon

1) why else do you think Fort mEad has the best computers in world

2) oi !!! thats my secret

persoanlly we should all say osam bin laden in every ocnvrsation jsut to crash thier computers }> }> }>

IMHO they don’t have neough opertives t sue this i the way we fear they do

rabie :9

RE: Echelon

I don’t understand how these ‘filters’ should work. Words like “terrorists”, “Bush” will be spotted by Echelon. But does that mean AFM is under constant supervision of the NSA? We discuss about politics, military stuff and so on. Maybe there’s already a list of persons which sould be eliminated because they spread anti-American stuff :D.

From now on I’ll type like Rabie so no computer can filter my words. “trerorsit.” lol 😀

RE: Echelon

If you ask an official about Echelon they will probably first say they don’t know anything about it. If you show you know more than the average joe public they will say that it is to catch child molesters, Drug dealers and terrorists.

It does consist of listening stations but because of the volume of raw data it uses a program to search for keywords in any language.
Any communication containing these key words are red flagged and checked. I have heard of a case where during a brief discussion about how her child performed at a school play a woman stated that her son “Bombed”. Due to the fact that both parties to the converstation knew what the event was it wasn’t mentioned… ie “How did billy get on last night?” …”Ohh he bombed!” “Did you….”.
Due to the nature of the conversation the person analysing the communication could not determine the context so her name was added to a list of potential suspects.
Result… any international travel involved cavity searches for that woman.

I don’t know about the stations in Canada and the UK etc, but most of the data we collect goes to the NSA for processing and we are given information that is relevant to us.

To suggest Echelon is purely an economic spy tool is not true, but it is certainly used for that purpose.

I have heard of a case where the relationship between members was used to get around the law. Margaret Thatcher suspected one of her ministers of leaking infomation to the press. She couldn’t have him electronically monitored so she got the Canadians to do it for her. They found the suspicions were well founded and that minister lost his job.

Regarding the legality of Echelon… yes it is Illegal.
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that everyone has the right to privacy and that a search is unlawful if it is done the way Echelon does it. Listening to every communication equates to an illegal search… basically the police going door to door looking to see if any laws have been broken (ie drugs, stolen property etc etc).

RE: Echelon

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 06-08-02 AT 08:58 PM (GMT)]Well, technologically and financially it shouldn’t be a problem, but I think the UK and Germany (which have US bases) will make it difficult. I wouldn’t say the first 5 years, but from 2010 and on, it should be reality.

The EU is backed by a lot of countries like Japan, ROK and Australia, so I guess they will win at the WTO. And we all know that this steel war was started by the US a couple of years ago when they imposed taxes on Belgian steel (Sidmar in Ghent).

RE: Echelon

The above post links in well to the recent thread on US sanctions against Taiwan, if Air China buys from Airbus.

It’s a wider story than US/EU though. The Aussies seem mad about the US measures too. The other complexity is a joint US/EU effort to crack down on illegal patent busting in India and South Africa. They might still win compensation from these governments.

Coming full circle, I’d say that all countries spy on each other and only share when they have to – eg. they have facilities in each other’s countries. It just so happens that some of them teamed up to form Echelon.

Do you think the EU will develop a proper Euro-version?

RE: Echelon

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 06-08-02 AT 06:08 PM (GMT)]You see why a European Echelon should be necessairy? How can we rely on information from the NSA if they are protecting their own economy? Commercial intelligence seems to be very important these days …

Q&A: US-EU trade war

BBC News Online explains the background to the latest trade dispute between the US and the EU, which is threatening a $4bn transatlantic trade war between the world’s biggest trade blocs.
What are the US and EU fighting about?

The European Union says that US exporters are getting unfair help from their government.

It says that under an obscure provision of US tax laws, US companies are exempt from paying tax on the profits from their exports – all they have to do is set up “foreign sales corporations” based in overseas tax havens.

That makes it easier for Boeing, for example, to boost sales of its planes to other countries, and makes life difficult for its European rival Airbus.

Under the rules that govern the world trading system, such behaviour is illegal.

The EU raised the issue with the World Trade Organisation, the body that manages the world trading system, and mediates in trade disputes.

What happens now?

Trade disputes take a long time to resolve, and this one has been going on since 1998.

The EU has already won three rulings in the case.

But now time is on the side of the EU.

The WTO still has to approve the findings officially, but that is a formality. Once that has happened, a WTO arbitration panel will be set up, to decide on the amount of sanctions to be imposed on US exporters. It has 60 days to do the job.

The EU is claiming $4bn in damages, which it could recover through imposing an equivalent amount of tariffs on a range of US goods which are sold to European consumers.

However, there is likely to be intensive negotiation between the EU and US before this happens.

Are there other trade tensions between the US and the EU?

There are a number of outstanding trade disputes between the world’s two big trading blocs.

The EU has had a long-standing ban on importing US hormone-treated beef, claiming that it is unsafe.

The WTO has repeatedly ruled against this claim, and the US is currently imposing $114m worth of sanctions against EU goods in retaliation.

The EU also is casting a wary eye on US exports of GM crops such as soya beans, which are often used in processed foods.

There has not been a formal complaint yet, but the EU made it clear at recent trade talks that it wanted to ensure that consumers had the right to clear labelling of the GM content of imported food.

There is also the matter of steel, where the US wants to limit imports from around the world on the grounds that other countries are “dumping” their excess steel production at below-market prices in the US.

The EU and other producers have said they would complain to the WTO about any steel import restrictions.

How serious could this dispute be?

This is the largest trade dispute yet that has come before the WTO, and it has the potential to cause massive disruption to trade relations.

The US, with its economy in recession, is facing increasing protectionist pressures, especially in Congress, and will be angered by sanctions that could hurt some of its most profitable companies, like GE, Boeing and Microsoft.

But the EU has been adopting an increasingly aggressive trade stance, and has the economic muscle to stand up to the US.

The world trading system is facing a series of difficult negotiations over the lifting of restrictions, after an agreement in principle in November at Doha to begin a new trade round.

If this dispute is not resolved, it would make a very bad start to the new trade round.

RE: Echelon

It’s not just the French Rabie, there are some 14 other countries in the EU (and soon 29). If it would have only been France, nobody would make such a problem out of it.

But even then, the French are right, becasue using spionage to achieve economic goals is just illegal and not a form of fare trading. If US cheats, so can the rest of the world 😀

RE: Echelon

I have to add something here “Echelon” is a SIGINT network that, allegedly, was formed by the UKUSA group incorporating some, not all, US assets and the capabilities of the major Commonwealth nations – UK, Australia, Canada and NZ. It does not stop there though. Many so-called 3rd party nations have had input and access to, at different times, this network. The published ones include Germany, Japan, South Korea and Turkey.

All these states, not to mention a great many others, all therefore have the capability to develop significant SIGINT product in their own regard. I’ve even seen seen the French capacity jokingly labelled “Frenchelon” owing to its advanced capability!.

Whether they are therefore bundled under the bogey name “Echelon” or not other nations have and, doubtless, do use their surveillance capability for reasons that have little to do with military affairs.

RE: Echelon

the frogs }> don’t like it because its america, canada, uk, australia and NZ all spying together – rather than nato as a whole

spy agency’s normally never share much – i think only the CIA and SIS have a working relationship but even them don’t hsare everything

rabie :9

RE: Echelon

Geforce,

Yes, I’m Brazilian. You can find lots of site talking about the SIVAM scandall (specially in portuguese of course) in sites in Internet. Try looking for at altavista.com. If you need any help with translation you can ask me anytime, ok? 🙂

regards,
Primer55

RE: Echelon

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 05-08-02 AT 05:01 PM (GMT)]I see you’re from Brazil. I would appreciate if you could gather some information about it for me, if you have them ofcourse. I understand some Portuguese.

BTW, Jonesy, it was not a French documentary, it was a Belgian one. And some of it must be true, because many Canadians participated in this doc.

RE: Echelon

Geforce,

That scandall you say about wasnt just for satellite system. It also included lots of radar sites, mobile radars and CC centers and the program was called SIVAM/SIPAM (Amazon Vigilance System/Amazon Protection System) the same as for which were developed the EMB-145AEW, -145RS and the ALX (AT-29 Super Tucano). I dont remember how much the program was avaliated but I am sure it was much more than US$ 1 bilion. Many things were left unexplained about that.

Regards,
Primer55

RE: Echelon

I think an important aspect of this may just be that it was a French documentry Geforce. Therefore it was surely completely unbiased and had no agenda, whatsoever, in portraying the US in a bad light. 😀

This kind of intel gathering is done on a routine basis between friendly nations. Certainly a “UK-asset-located-close-to-Cheltenham”, a key node in the Echelon system, monitors CONUS for all sorts of reasons – most with full US knowledge and approval. I’ve also heard of French Echelon stations being used to very great effect (in 1982 a French SIGINT station alerted UK forces to an Argentine special forces mission that was about to attack the Gibraltar naval base).

To imply that Echelon is a tool exclusively used by the US in support of its private industry therefore is inaccurate. To say it has been, and is being, grossly misused by many of its participants though is an understatement of some magnitude.