Anti terror war-Isrealis style.

RE: Anti terror war-Isrealis style.

There are many schools of thought on how to deal with terrorists.

Taking out the leaders is certainly one of them. But even the most gung-ho must admit it is only one of the tools at the disposal of the authorities.

Engaging in hearts and minds operations is another option. The British did this to great success during the Malaya Emergency, when SAS troops visited villages and managed to get the locals on-side against Communist Terrorists (CT’s). That probably succeeded for 2 reasons – (1) the locals were simple tribal people and (2) the SAS are pretty much the cream of soldiers and as far as I can glean are not given to racism or anything to turn people against them. But it’s worth a try in other situations, surely? Showing the population that you are trying to be the good guy can only help. Blowing buildings up is absolutely not helpful, whatever the provocation. If people – Palestinians – think Israel valuaes their lives, then they might start to see through the propaganda given time.

Engaging in political process is another. If people genuinely think they can change things through the ballot box they are much less likely to tolerate terrorism. Bouncing around ideas, even impossibly impractical ones, gets people thinking. Why not publish an Israeli gov’t white paper on merging the states of Israel and Palestine into a Jewish/Muslim conglomerate? It will never happen, but will display willingness to sue for peace.

An Israel positioning itself as independent, open minded and willing to deal with problems through words will be the start. Muslims might demand less US influence on Israel. Why not? Who knows what good might develop if the two sides change their mindset.

Anyway, just random thoughts.

RE: Anti terror war-Isrealis style.

> And what do these “excellent reasons” comprise?

For a start, one of the three members of the investigating team was former Red Cross president, Cornelio Sommargua, who refused to let Magen David Adom (Red Star of David) join the International Red Cross in the 12 years he headed the IRC. His objection was that the Star of David was a religious icon, which is rather amazing considering the Red Cross had no similar problem with the Red Crescent. Furthermore, when pressed on the issue, Sommargua compared the Star of David to the Swastika. This is a man we should have expected objectivity from?
There’s more. The investigation team’s mandate was solely to investigate Israeli actions alone. It was not to look into armed Palestinian presence in the camp, from which 23 suicide bombers emerged to blow up innocent civilians, nor the explosives strewn about the camp by the Palestinian fighters, nor the funding by the Palestinian Authority to local terrorists and assorted gunmen and murderers. With such a mandate, the outcome was decided before he work had even begun. But then everybody knew that already – of the three team members, not one had any military experience, yet these were the people supposed to judge IDF operations. How? Could they tell a house brought down by a tank shell from one detonated by a Palestinian charge? No, but that’s probably because the UN doesn’t really care.
Not good enough? Well, there’s also the little issue of who actually administers the Jenin refugee camp. This is of course the job of UNWRA – itself a UN agency, which has done nothing to oppose, expel or even report terrorists operating under its jurisdiction, has done nothing when bomb making laboratories were operated in schools it run, and whose employees’ union is controlled by a faction of the PLO!
What do you think Israel could expect from such a team, Viper? This was nothing short of a kangaroo court, a pure and simple ambush aimed at crucifying Israel. Now, I have no clue whether this passes for fair in Norway, but if it does, I wouldn’t be too surprised to hear more of certain notorious Norwegian leaders …

> Well then, what is your current position, politically speaking?

I’m sorry, but I’m not going to tell you. It’s not that I haven’t revealed my opinions to the forum before; it’s simply too much fun to see you trying to guess. }>

> Well, maybe the Israeli occupation and the consequent oppression of the
> Palestinian population resident on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip is
> somehow related to it. Maybe you should try to get in touch with some
> Palestinians and conduct an inquiry related to this topic.

Ahh yes, the classic. Suicide bombings? Occupation. Widespread corruption? Occupation. Antisemitic incitement? Occupation. It’s all the Occupation, from start to finish. Well, Viper, you may very well be content with such a simple answer, but let’s look at some simple facts, shall we? Israel had been in control of the West Bank and Gaza Strip from 1967; yet not one single suicide bombing took place before the signing of the Oslo Accords in 1993 and the subsequent handing over of all Palestinians cities and 95% of the population to Palestinian Authority control. In fact, before 1990 there was not one single roadblock between Israel and the territories! Such terrorism only begun when the end of the occupation was suddenly at hand. Of course, these are the same territories control by Egypt and Jordan before 1967, not by some Palestinian entity, yet there was no terrorism aimed at their ‘occupation’, was there? But I know what did exist before 1967 – the PLO, formed before Israel’s capture of the land, aimed at its complete destruction, and whose emblem still depicts the entirety of Israel, not only the disputed West Bank and Gaza Strip. Then there’s also the issue of the second Camp David summit. Yasser Arafat rejects Israeli offers out of hand, declines to continue any peaceful negotiations, opting for was instead, and yet continues to claim to be fighting against Israeli aggression and Israeli occupation. His actions and his failure to fight terrorism have brought about the end of three liberal Israeli governments (Rabin, Peres, Barak) and brought to power both Sharon and Netantyahu. For all intents and purposes, Arafat is not fighting against occupation, he’s perpetuating it!
Viper, do you really think that the Israeli public wishes to continue controlling millions of Palestinians, that we have nothing better to do than stay in the cesspool known as the Gaza Strip, or that our presence in the West Bank is for fun? The occupation could have been over ages ago, repeated polling of the Israeli public has shown a clear majority willing to withdraw, dismantle the settlements and to witness the formation of a Palestinian state. This has remained true even in these hard times. But this is not good enough for the current leadership of the PA. Their demands exceed the formation of a Palestinian state in those territories captured in 1967. They demand, among other things, a return of all Palestinian refugees to Israel proper – in effect bringing about the destruction of the state of Israel. This is what we’re fighting for – a negotiated agreement likely to bring an end to the conflict, rather than a unilateral move which would do nothing but bring the fighting closer to our homes. For should Israel withdraw unilaterally, terrorism will not stop, much like a unilateral move did nothing to dissipate tensions along our border with Lebanon. Terrorism would have been proven effective, more effective than negotiations, and the war would resume, until Israel is forced to accept conditions amounting to suicide.
Now, I’m sure you consider yourself a reasonable man, one who wishes to see nothing but peace finally arriving in the Middle East. If Europe thinks this can be advanced through the leadership of Yasser Arafat and his coven of terrorist leaders and corrupt bureaucrats, then Europe is entitled to its opinion. But it’s not me you’re disappointing – it’s the millions of Palestinians who deserve better than both the occupation and the tyranny of a Palestinian Authority content with sacrificing its youth on the romantic and unnecessary alter of fighting ‘occupation’.
For your amusement, Viper, I have attached a picture depicting the emblem of the Palestinian Ministry of Industry. Open an atlas, you’ll see that the minister doesn’t seem content with West Bank and Gaza Strip industry, apparently he has the entirety of Israel under the his jurisdiction …

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” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “

Attachments:

RE: Anti terror war-Isrealis style.

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 06-08-02 AT 06:33 PM (GMT)]Phantom, thanks for the support, but there’s really no need to get so passionate about it. We’ve been through all this before, and we’ll be through it countless time in the future. Like many newcomers, Viper comes here with opinions he has formed one way or another, and which have probably never been seriously challenged. He doesn’t know he’s bursting into a open door, beyond which are people which are very likely to disagree with him on a whole lot of issues. I couldn’t ignore him even if I wanted to 😀

> By the way, isn’t the so- called head figure of Hamas a guy named
> Yatta or something? An old man with distinguished by a white beard
> and a squeeky voice?

You’re refering to Ahmed Yassin, he’s the spiritual head of the organization. Shehadeh was the founder of the Iz-Adim-El-Kassam, the military wing of the Hamas which is resposible for attacks on Israelis.

> I live in a country of which an Israeli politician (I believe it
> was your Minister of Foreign Affairs) once referred to as “the
> country who gave us Quisling.” That statement made me upset.

That made you upset? You should come live here for a while, we take a whole lot worse, including from certain Scandinavian countries.

> As far I as I know, no UN representative has ever been allowed to
> investigate the ruins of Jenin.

UN officials have repeatedly come and gone, the UN even has a permanent presence in Jenin in the form of UNWRA which administers the local refugee camp. Israel objected to the formation of an official investigating commitee and for excellent reasons too.

> The IDF would probably attempt to conceal anything that could
> compromise their credibility and their reputation, just as any
> other military organisation, including NATO. The thing about NATO
> is that they admit their mistakes through public statements, even
> the serious ones.

Had you bothered to check, you would have seen the IDF does this as well.

> But Prime Minister Ariel Sharon simply had to refer to the Paveway
> mistake a grand “success,” didn’t he? Even despite the tragic
> outcome.

The IDF is the Israeli military and Ariel Sharon is the Prime Minister. They’re not one and the same, attributing one’s comments to the other is simply a mistake. Besides, while expressing he’s appreciation to the IDF for the achievement of locating a man who’s been evading Israeli intelligence for years, he also expressed regret over the loss of civilian life. His crime is being stupidly insensitive, nothing more.

> I have already assumed that you’re not one of those brilliant young
> liberal Israelis. Are you in direct support of the right- wing of
> the Likud party?

Good one, Viper, you couldn’t be farther off mark.

> This one’s from Monthy Python, isn’t it? Ingenious.

From the “No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!!!” sketch.

> My criticism is aimed at those who govern the state of Israel, and
> the IDFAF, for some of the operations carried out against
> Palestinian non- terrorist targets (security HQs, prisons confining
> terrorist suspects, police stations etc, -> essential outfits
> required in order to counter terrorist activity).

Viper, you fail to understand some of the most fundamental facts about the conflict going on. It is not only terrorist organizations carrying out these strikes, but the same security organizations which are supposed to fight them! Bombed security HQs were busy manufacturing the same weapons they were supposed to apprehend. Prisons practically had revolving doors where the terrorists could come and go as they will. This reached such an absurd state, that at one time a Palestinian militant was spotted in a protest organized to press for his own release !!! It’s very convinient to think the Palestinian Authority is trying to fight terrorism, when all the facts reveal otherwise. You mention the Al-Aqsa Brigade yourself. That is not a Palestinian opposition group such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad. That group is a part of the Fatah, whose founder and president is none other that Yasser Arafat. Plus, since you’ve got it all figured out, would you please be so kind as to explain why for eight years following the signing of the Oslo accords, the Palestinian Authority, now in control of territories given by Israel and over 95% of the Palestinian population, did practically nothing about ongoing attacks originating from these same territories? There were no police bombings then, no prison was destroyed, not one single incusrion into Palestinian territory. I would very much like your take on the matter.
On the other hand, though I wholely disagree about certain opinions expressed as to the cause and instigators of the current violence, I would stop at the above. It doesn’t really belong in this thread, if you wish, start another, though we’ve discussed in a length before.

> IDFAF make attempts regardless of the location and probability of
> causing collateral damage.

You have no clue what you’re talking about. You’re taking one incident you know close to nothing about and making it an example of all others. To date, in two years of fighting, strikes by IDF/AF jets have cost less lifes than NATO’s single strike on Korisa which killed 79. This incident which you have made an example of, was in fact the deadliest IDF/AF strike of the entire Intifada.

> As I explained in my last post, the Israeli public and the
> remainder of the world is likely to be held fools by the IDFAF
> regarding some actions they intend to conceal for already known
> purposes (i. e. everything that occurred during Op Defensive
> Shield, especially in the city of Jenin).

Jenin? Don’t make me laugh. The blatantly biased European media spread libelous lies without a shred of evidence, this has been revealed to see to the entire world by none other than the UN, and then you blame the IDF of making fools of the Israeli public and the world? For god’s sake Viper, how about a little humility?

> Were you part of the assault team sent into Jenin? If not, you
> probably possess equally as little well- founded knowledge of the
> occurrences there as everyone else (except IDFAF elements directly
> involved with the operation).

You’re quite right, Viper, I was certainly not at Jenin. But if you think for a moment that that makes me no more informed than you than you, then are quite mistaken. I have spoken to people who have been there, seen countless articles, photographs, editorials and accounts (by both sides) of the incident as to have far more clue about the things I seak about. I have seen what every spectrum of the local political landscape had to say about the matter, I have seen the propaganda and I have seen the weapons and tactics in use. My opinion is undoubtedly biased, but I can speak with the certainly of one who has more than enough sources to back up his claims. I will not assume to have knowledge anywhere like yours about events in Norway, don’t presume you know near as much as I do about what going on here. If you feel I am mistaken about Jenin, go ahead, present your proof.

> My verbal offensive is aimed at the current Israeli government and
> the IDFAF

You keep refering to IDF/AF in places where you’re obviously talking about the IDF. That alone makes me a bit skeptical as to whether you’re as well informed as you think you are.

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” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “

RE: Anti terror war-Isrealis style.

This sickens me the way Viper, Tomel, and some others view this whole scenario….

Skythe, I admire you for your presistence in defending your country whom I believe to be in the right about all of this, from individuals like Viper who are rather ill-informed. You might consider ignoring them all-together.

Viper, you nor I can comprehend what Skythe and his nation have gone through so why don’t you just back off and quit defending the ones who are the source of the problem. Believe it or not, the Israelis are NOT the bad guys in this. I agree, civilian deaths are always tragic, but things like that are going to happen when you have cowards such as these Hamas people that consistently hide in civlian areas knowing full-well they are endangering the lives of those around them. This man knew that if he was to be attacked that civlians might die and that when it happened, Israel was going to be made out the bad guy. That is part of their plan. Make Israel look bad to the rest of the world. Fortunately, some people, such as Flanker and myself can see through this. So get your facts straight before you argue with Skythe because he will tear you down in no time. You know why? Because he has lived with this crap for many many years and he knows the TRUTH. You and I cannot even begin to understand what he has gone through.

RE: Anti terror war-Isrealis style.

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 04-08-02 AT 10:55 PM (GMT)]> Unlike the IAF, NATO strike assets were never employed against
> individuals hiding among civilians.

So? NATO strikes were often carried out against targets far less deadly than a man such as Salah Shehadeh, resposbile for hundreds of deaths, and located in just the same civilian sorroundings. The fact that NATO did not go after specific persons makes absolutely zero difference as to the morality of these operations. Striking media centers is justified while targetting the head of a murderous terrorist orgazation isn’t?

> Tasks that involve apprehension
> or assassination of individuals are normally assigned to special
> units operating on the ground. The risc of causing collateral
> damage is too extensive when employing air power against such
> targets.

Quite correct, and that is the way things are usually done here as well. But, alas, the man has been evading us for years, and was tracked to a certain point at a certain time. As I mentioned, a ground operation would have been far costlier for BOTH Israelis AND Palestinians, and would have most probably ended in failure. A decision was made that turned out to be wrong. Were all NATO operations in Kosovo right? Hardly.

> And what do you mean by “here” and “we?” Do you live somewhere in
> the Levant?

I live in Israel, I thought that was obvious enough. Where do you live, Viper? The profile doesn’t mention that.

> Why do some IDF officers allege that there were no civilians
> present in the areas affected during “Operation Human Shield” (or
> whatever you refer to the IDF operation as), while other IDF
> officers reported terrible incidents occurring in Jenin during and
> after the operation?

No IDF officer ever claimed that there were no civilians in areas affected in “Defensive Shield”, nor did anyone claim that no civilians were harmed in the operation. But in order for me to respond to your allegations, I would really have to see more specific information than third-party accounts of what Israeli soldiers supposedly said. You may very well have heard such words uttered by some Israeli soldier, but not each and every soldier is the authority on why the IDF conducts its operations as it does. Again, I can hardly respond to allegations I have no knowledge about.
Let me say this though : Jenin was a place where hundreds of well armed and well prepared militants (by their own accounts, previously posted on this forum) had been planning and carrying out their activities with complete impunity. To suggest, as Tomel did, that IDF operations were somehow deliberately aimed at the civlian population, is simply not true.

> So, the IDF relies on visual indications from external viewpoints
> while operating in areas heavily surrounded by large obstacles?
> Probable tactic employed by IDF during ground ops: “Ignore, shoot, > perceive.”

I’m glad you admit your actual knowledge of IDF tactics is practically nonexistant. Only one of us is actually a reserve IDF officer, and I’m pretty sure that’s me. Were the 23 Israeli soldiers killed by fighting in Jenin under such orders, they might have actually survived the battle. Were the IDF/AF so different from NATO, immoral versus elightened, as you try to paint it, those soldiers would had never gone in, leaving the job to the air force. IDF forces fought house to house for twelve days, and yet despite Palestinian claims to the contrary there took place no massive killing of Palestinian civlians. The UN itself admitted as much in its recently published report on the fighting in the city. In fact, more Israeli soldiers than Palestinian non-cobatants died in the city.

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” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “

RE: Anti terror war-Isrealis style.

‘Israeli soldiers never attacked civvies????”
What about Jenin????Why the govt reluctant to accept UN fact finding team????100s of civvies dead/injured -self inflicted???
The world knows clearly -at times IDF do commited an act of ‘terrorism’ against civvies.

RE: Anti terror war-Isrealis style.

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 03-08-02 AT 08:43 PM (GMT)]> What retarded operations planner would select a 2000 lbs. Paveway
> bomb to be employed for the purpose of eliminating a single
> individual located within a block full of civics

Please, neither you nor I know what really went on in IDF/AF mission planning. Hindsight is always 20/20, especially from thousands of miles away. [link:www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=190550&contrassID=2… says it thought Gaza raid would not kill civilians]
Besides, I am curious: after all, it was you who wrote : “many of the military targets hit by NATO during Operation Allied Force were placed in the midst of or in the close vicinity of densely populated areas”. So tell me, when civilians in Kosovo die it is despite NATO efforts to the contrary, yet when they die here it is precisely because we do not make such efforts? I may indeed admire the IDF/AF, but not to such an extent that their mistakes are somehow justified while others’ are not.

> You imply that Israeli forces have never targeted civilians
> deliberately.

Indeed? Where?

> What about the massacres of Shabra and Shatila?

A bad example, you could do much better. The Sabra and Shatila massacres were not carried out by Israeli soldiers, but rather by the Lebanese Phalanges – that is, Christian Arabs. Certain Israelis were indeed held resposible, but not because of IDF conduct but rather because of Israel’s support of the Phalangists and for failing to comprehend or ignoring the dangers of allowing the Phalangists to enter the two camps a mere two days after the assassination of Bachir Gemayel, Lebanon’s Maronite Christian president.

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” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “

RE: Anti terror war-Isrealis style.

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 03-08-02 AT 04:54 PM (GMT)]> The TRUTH is, the general news media fails to recognize propaganda
> when it sees it. So do you.

welcome to the forum, Viper01.

Propaganda? Possibly, I will admit that. I wish I had your certainty about what the TRUTH is. But you will have to do better than quoting AFM. An excellent magazine but hardly the best source for such data.
Human Rights Watch lists 90 certified [link:www.hrw.org/reports/2000/nato/Natbm200-02.htm#P440_116432|Incidents Involving Civilian Deaths in Operation Allied Force ] plus others which it is not certain of. Amnesty International details a number of these at [link:web.amnesty.org/802568F7005C4453/0/6FD1044BD4347EF1802569000069308C?Open&Highlight=2,nato|Amnesty International Concerns Relating to NATO Bombings]. The numbers quoted by the Guardian, and posted by me, may indeed be wrong. But this does not really have an effect on the subject at hand, does it? The fact that such events did take place, does.

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” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “

RE: Anti terror war-Isrealis style.

you are not lying your arse off flanker, and i am sorry to hear that this happenned to some people in your family. HOWEVER. They really should have known the risks and frankly it would turn out to be a correct action to take by the armed forces, because, although it turned out to be innocent civilians, at the time it occurred NI was a very dodgy place, and your relatives should have been fully aware of the security situation.

Once again, flanker, i am very sorry to hear of your loss in this way, and it is very unfortunate that any civilians are ever harmed or killed in security operations.

This is the main reason that terrorist/paramilitary groups should be dealt with extremley quickly, because unfortunately those bastards use their own people, the people they are so called fighting for, as human shileds to cower behind. How can they ever believe that they are fighting for right??

coanda

RE: Anti terror war-Isrealis style.

Kev, don’t get me wrong on this, I can understand what you are trying to say. Yes it was horrible that civilians died in the incident, and yes you are right that this would be unimaginable to many British civilians. However, many terrorist leaders and fighters use civilian buildings or holy places to plan or launch attacks. Do you not realise that this gent’ was hoping that hiding in a building surrounded by civilians was going to ensure his survival.
I read a horrible report in this months AFM about a Palestinian sniper hiding in a Mosque and shooting at Israeli troops knowing that Israeli forces would not fire on a holy place!
This type of tactic is used to gain sympathy…”Oh, look at the horrible Israeli’s blowing up civilians!!!” and so on.
In Northern Ireland, and no I’m not making this up, British troops often fired on civilians who drove through checkpoints. Many people will think I am lying my ass off when I say that I lost two cousins in just such an incident.

May 10th 1979

My two cousins had come from Dublin to Belfast to visit a relative. After their two day stay they went for a drink before heading home. Perhaps foolishly, and as far as I know this is what happened, one of my cousins who was driving had one too many. Because his vision must have been affected he didn’t see the checkpoint on a country lane (this was 10pm) and didn’t slow down. The British troops must have paniced and opened fire, both of them died.

So yes, in a certain way I can see how such as attack would affect families. Does this mean the troops were wrong to fire on a civilian vehicle which failed to stop??? My cousins could have been armed terrorists, members of the IRA.
Okay it’s a different situation, but I hope you see some similarity.+

RE: Anti terror war-Isrealis style.

well quite frankly….if governments took out these threats at the very beginning, and didnt let them linger they would be allot more trouble free. If the government had decided to get rid of the 20 or so idiots at the top of todays irish paramilitaries, we would have a lot less problem coming to a political and much nicer solution to NI. I mean protestant terrorists aswell as catholic.

Perhaps dropping a paveway through a block of flats was some kind of overkill, and perhaps the damage could have been lessened by a TOW from a cobra( as they prefer this weapon to the heavier warhead of the hellfire) but you dont know the outcome of the risk assessment. maybe all of the sams didnt come through by ship? maybe the radius encompassing the TOW kill range was deemed too dangerous. Or maybe the israeli’s want to send their own message.

Its time to get serious and stop pansy arsing around with terrorist groups. It has been time, for a long time.

And yes if it was my job to remove from this earth some of the scum in a number of countries, knowing what they had done, i would have no problems pulling the trigger.

I do not go around with blinkers on. And this is not any kind of extremism, its honest truthfulness.

coanda

RE: Anti terror war-Isrealis style.

Peres has “doubts” about Ariel Sharon
BERLIN, Sunday (AFP)

Israeli Foreign Affairs Minister Shimon Peres has admitted that he is unsure whether Prime Minister Ariel Sharon could be a credible partner for peace in the Middle East conflict, according to an interview to be published here Monday.

In response to a statement that “many Israelis doubt whether Ariel Sharon could be a partner for peace,” Peres told the German weekly Der Spiegel: “Me too, I have my doubts.”

“But what should I do about them? Collect them?” he asked afterward, adding: “As long as I feel able to change something and balance (the situation), I will stay” in the Sharon government.

The Labour party minister renewed his regret over Monday’s raid on Hamas military chief Salah Shehade in which 14 other people were also killed. Peres called it “an error of judgement, a 100-percent mistake.”

“The result clearly shows that we used the wrong weapon.

The bomb was more destructive than it was useful,” he said.

Peres had first said on Wednesday that “a mistake happened during the raid on Shehade.

RE: Anti terror war-Isrealis style.

Hi, Flanker,

“Now we hear about Israeli “over kill” – I say good on ’em….
If a Paveway is what it takes to kill a terrorist leader
without risking the lives of your own, then do it!”

An Al Queada cell is operating from a hotel in England and by chance, all the people you hold dearest to your heart are in the same hotel. You have been unavoidably detained and arrive to find the hotel a burning ruin as the result of an air strike and all your loved ones dead. Now, the terrorists are dead, and rightly so, but can you honestly tell me that you would just shrug your shoulders and say “Oh well, at least they got the terrorists?”

Now I’m sure you are going to jump on me suggesting it is different, my scenario takes place in England. But isn’t the death of one innocent the same as any other? Or is an innocent Palestinian of less worth than an innocent Englishman?

Regards,

kev35

RE: Anti terror war-Isrealis style.

Well, first of all, the Sinai is about ten times larger than the West Bank, so it really depends on what your definition of ‘major’ is.
The precedent I was refering to was that a hawkish government, much like Sharon’s, evacuated settlements against the expectations of many in Israel and around the world. That alone should be enough to give people an idea that alienating an elected Israeli government, even if its politics are not to your liking, can actually be counterproductive to the pursuit of peace.

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” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “

RE: Anti terror war-Isrealis style.

Sorry to interupt fellas, but I can’t feel that some of you are becoming reporters for the British tabloid “The Daily Mail” which has a habit of condemning US and Israeli attacks – and seems to forget why they take place in the first place!!! Even as we speak the Daily Mail has published an article on Camp X-Ray, and asks why the US is still holding members of Al Queda. They also condemn attacks against the treatment of POWs…even though the US is at war with these people.
Now we hear about Israeli “over kill” – I say good on ’em. Do you forget that when Israeli civilians are killed in the streets, these people go out and celebrate??? How about condemning THEM for once and NOT Israel for defending its people.
If a Paveway is what it takes to kill a terrorist leader without risking the lives of your own, then do it!

RE: Anti terror war-Isrealis style.

How can the Sinai withdrawals have set a precedent if the major areas of occupied land are still held by Israel? You mention the West Bank yourself.

RE: Anti terror war-Isrealis style.

I’m not so sure I would agree that the Sinai evacuations were token. Those settlements were indeed tiny, especially comapred to the West Bank ones, but an important precendent was set. Bear in mind that this was not carried out by a left-wing government, by by Begin’s right wing Likud government, which was something no one had really expected. This probably means practically nothing to you, but it is important in the local context.

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” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “

RE: Anti terror war-Isrealis style.

I never said that I hate Ariel Sharon. I don’t doubt that he is a man one can “do business” with. However by all accounts, so is Arafat. Maybe Sharon can “do business”, but he doesn’t seem to want to. You talk about him giving back some settlements which Israel had occupied. Big deal – it was no more than a token. Do you disagree?

Nor did I infer that Yasser Arafat is a paragon of virtue. To some extent, our support for the PLO is our attempt to deal with the US by proxy, given the near blind loyalty the US has to Israel. I’m sure you’ll say the US isn’t really that loyal to Israel, but it’s something the majority of non-Israelis/non-Americans believe I’m afraid.

Nor did I suggest the EU are the real good guys. We have some spectacular faults. But given that anyone else does too, I don’t think it is a big deal.

RE: Anti terror war-Isrealis style.

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 28-07-02 AT 07:58 PM (GMT)]”Murderous tendencies”, Mongu? I’ll be sure to have a good laugh about that the next time I hear about the next EU installment to Yasser Arafat, the man who never had anything to do with exploding passenger jets and school buses.

Besides, you can really spare me the superficial pseudo-psychology. You can pin the entire Middle East woes on Ariel Sharon’s shoulders, but they were here long before he was, and they’ll be here long after he’s gone. I don’t like the man, I didn’t vote for him, but the fact that there exists incessant European incitement against the man is more telling about Europe than it is about us. Do you know what the stupid thing is? In your hatred of him, you fail to comprehend certain basic truths, truths that could actually be quite conducive towards peace in the Middle East. Ariel Sharon was the first and only man to date to demolish Israeli settlements (those in the Sinai, following peace with Egypt), as well as the first right wing Israeli prime minister to talk directly about the formation of an independent Palestinian state. For all his failings, he is a man that you can actually ‘do business’ with, which can actually ‘deliver the goods’. Your blind hatred of him, fuelled by some demonic imagery of the man, is something you might one day come to regret. It is certainly not doing any good right now, it’s just another reason for us to ignore whatever influence Europe is trying to exercise.

Finally, despite your attempts at blaming some anonymous American generals for NATO’s actions in the Balkans, your leaders are just as responsible as mine. In fact, considering that the NATO bombing campaign lasted for some time, with the results made known time and again, I would certainly not go about bringing up ‘murderous tendencies’. It would seem everyone has them.

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” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “

RE: Anti terror war-Isrealis style.

Skythe

It was well known that Sharon was likely to “stick it” to the Palestinians when he was elected. So his murerdous tendencies were after all, put there by the electorate.

I also disagree about NATO. We all know that NATO = the USA. How can the British voters stop Gen. Dan Cheeseburger III from using cluster bombs? No one else is listened to within NATO. You either accept the US domination or leave altogether. Maybe we should have the moral courage to leave. NATO seems to serve no useful purpose these days, anyway.