Sociological question

RE: Sociological question

http://parris.josh.com.au/humour/xeno/NotEuropean.html

RE: Sociological question

yes i agree we are isolated because we see no reason to get invloved. we have free trade and we really need little else. we keep norder controls, we have our own currency and get little EU benifits comapred to outlay

on the brussles front its reffered to in the same way as americans refer to the people who live in washington DC. we think they are jsut evil burocrats. we jsut don’t trust the brussels civil service

rabie :9

RE: Sociological question

Yeah I agree reform is a must. But we can’t help you are living so isolated from the rest of Europe. Well, the US is about 20 times as far as the European continent so it’s up to you which way you are heading. 😀

BTW, the best diplomats in the EU are Spaniards. I think Solana could use some more siesta for example. BTW, the Parliament-buildings are entirely paid by Belgium, France and Luxembourg, so no pound ever went into these projects.

RE: Sociological question

wiht the vast amount of sceptics in my country and me being slighty pro europe you can see that your going to need to do a lot more than that to persuade the UK.

1) the EU need to reform CAP NOW and very severly

2) you need to make the cominsoners come or at least be toatlly acountalbe to the eu parliment.

these two thing are fundamentla and unless these sort of things happen you really haven’t got a hope of persuading the brtis round.

we see the whole system as toally corupt and paying southerns to have siestas and pay belgian beurcrats. the uk sees no real advantage, only the free trade apeals to us. as we are not on the bordes like you belgians no brits go abraod enough to notice the benifits.

sorry mate reform is must and is urgent

rabie :9

RE: Sociological question

Yeah, was true. In 1999 the comission had to resign due a corruption scandal, but corruption and democracy have always been closely connected. 2B BP is not that much Rabie. Spain will have to pay more when Europe will expand (if this ever happens ofcourse because it seems like the EU will be a rich-only club for the next 20 years).

RE: Sociological question

2) ok we send something like £12bn and get £10 bn back while spain give £8bn and gets £10bn back. I (not many others) acept that the WAS nesceasary but nowadays do they need such aid ???

3) it is not democratice. the parliment has no power and the comisoners are unelected and provenly corupt

rabie :9

RE: Sociological question

Hi Rabie,

2. Well, non of the EU-countries can be described as poor, but many regions were poor before they became a member of the EU, like Portugal, Greece and Ireland. The EU doesn’t cost the UK that much every year. Every country has to give in something, but in return, gets back a lot.

3. The EU is not undemocratic. Like in any other country, one can vote for a parliament which will appoint the ministers or commissioners in the case of Europe. The EU also has its own court in Luxembourg (not the European court on human rights which is based in Stratsbourg). The EU is also not corrupt, but there are scandals everywhere: just look at the Bush-Cheney administration. But I agree many institutions have to reform, in order to become more effective and to get closer towards its citizens.

Read this and find out more about who funds the EU.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/europe/2001/inside_eur…

RE: Sociological question

1) i don’t balme sea hawk about the weather side of not wanting to visit hear (unless your a duck :-))

2) geefroce it is common knowledge that we put more in than we get back. we also know that certain countries like spain put less in than they get back. the anit europeans really latch on to this and there is not much of a convincing argument to argue against this ecause as every brit sees when they go on holiday spain is not poor any more. spain is jsu t the example but it happens alll over southern europe.

3) greater democracy and acountability is the only future. everyone know that europe is totally corupt. reforming CAP is fundamental as its cost US (the north of europe) a fortune while the mafia and southern frmares just produce uneeded food. france and spains footdragging on this is really pissing us off as this is soo expensive for us.

rabie :9

RE: Sociological question

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 11-07-02 AT 12:58 PM (GMT)]There have to be leaders, and the EU of today is one which is still dominated by the 3 ‘superpowers’. None of them is of any military significance, but when it comes to economy, Germany still is the strongest. I don’t think the Germans have been treated fair the past 50 years, and especially the French, more than the Britons, still see Germany as an ‘enemy’. How about the representatives in the EU parliament? France and Germany have both as many seats in the parliament, though Germany has some 24 million inhabitans more. When I mean leading Europe I’m not referring to any of the world wars, but about the politics. Today, it is still France and the UK who are ringing the bells. The Germans try to stay more neutral, although they have more reasons to be pissed off! Germany is the only EU-country which is giving in more than it gets (for France and the UK it is about the same, input and output), so therefor I find that Germany should get more respect, not only among the people, but also among the gov’ts. And Germans are not the boring-hardworking man. They are more like the “let’s have a Barbeque and invite everyone in the neighbourhoud”-people.

RE: Sociological question

“I think the Germans should stand up and lead Europe” interesting historical irony there Geforce.

How about Europe gets its act together and realises that no one state or nation will ever be acceptable as “leaders” to all the others and that any attempt to rule “by commitee” is doomed to failiure through the divergent interests of the parties involved. Ever hear the story of the horse that was designed by a commitee?

As to the German/UK issue I cant see it as much different, really, to the USA/UK thing or the France/UK issue or the Japan/UK etc, etc. There is an old joke in the UK which goes along the line “We’re not racist….we hate everybody”!!!. Well the same thing exists with British xenophobia, we dont single one nation out as one-size-fits-all!

As to whether an of this is real “hatred” or sincere “xenophobia” I’d say depends on the person you are speaking to. In general I’d say that the “two world wars and one world cup” themes that surface every now and again are viewed as satirical banter by 90%+ of the UK population. Brits love satire and irreverence and can find humour in the most unlikely of places as I am sure Snowman can attest to.

If you read Nick Richardson’s book following his shootdown over Bosnia he details some of his earlier training missions against Luftwaffe Fulcrums which sum up the relationship between Brits and Germans perfectly. Lt Richardson led with his mouth decrying the fact that there was “no word in German for ‘fluffy'” and that Germans were a poor-humoured lot because of it. Later, over the range after a closely fought WVR run, the Mig-29’s calmly BVR “blasted” Lt Richardson and his wingman into scrap metal and asked how ‘fluffy’ that felt! This is the kind of banter that is found between professionals who have a respect for each other. I think this scales up to national level quite accurately.

steve

RE: Sociological question

What has shocked me a bit was the reaction of some dutch on the WC finals between Germany and Brazil.

“We don’t care who wins, as long as it is not Germany.” Well, I’ve always supported the German footballteam. The Germans stayed calm despite this, but imagine a Belgian saying on the finals between Holland and Brazil “we don’t care who wings, as long as it is not Holland”. Not very sportive, isn’t it?

Everybody is against Germany, but if they need money, guess whom they’ll be calling. Germany still does not get the respect it diserves from the other European countries, because of its past. That has to finish!

RE: Sociological question

Well, historically spoken Germany and the UK are no real enemies, they were both enemies of France (especially Germany). It’s time Germany stands up again, they are the ones who can lead Europe (economy ofcourse), not the UK or France (and certainly not Italy :D). All European economies are in good shape, but Germany alone produces 35 % of all Euro-coins and notes, which says a lot about the strenght of that nation. A EU without Germany would be like a pub without beer. Many EU-nations have benefitted from Germany the past 50 years (Ireland, Portugal, Greece which were still ‘backward’ when they joined the EU), including the UK and France. People forget very quickly, and that’s a pity, because Germany has been the sponsor for Europe the past 50 years. So Germans should not ashamed of who they are. Are the French ashamed of what they did in Algeria? Are the Yanks ashamed of what they’ve done to the black slaves in the 19th century? NO!

To quote Lenny in the Simpsons. “OK, the Germans have made some mistakes in the past. But that’s why pencils got erasers!”

RE: Sociological question

Well simpy put, we are not more efficent then any other european country, that is just a stereotype.
I personally believe that the average german works even less then most other eruopeans.
Our only advantage is that our workforce overall is highly qualified, which helps them to be effective.

I you ask me I´m not proud of being german, and if I would get a good job I would work nearly everywhere in europe, the US or NZ or Australia. (Well make it europe except France – as I find it very hard to speack french)

There are many things wrong in germany, starting from the high rate of inemployed to the idiots denying the Nazi crimes (or the idiots saying you must be ashamed to be german because of that). I think especially Britain and germany have much in common.

RE: Sociological question

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 11-07-02 AT 00:32 AM (GMT)]Has anyone here actually seen germans at work? They look like theyve taken a handfull of downers and probably take about 6 or 7 coffee breaks throughout the day. Is this some kind of optical illusion? I mean, when no ones looking, do they rush around and get everything done? I honestly would like to know how the germans have such a efficient society when they work like that.

RE: Sociological question

lol bloody sassenachs.

I respect the german ‘way’.

I like the efficiency that the average german corporation, and so therefore its people have.

I would rip into any german who denies that abominations like concentration camps and the racial cleansing took place. This I have known to happen to other people…I really hope that I never meet a german who thinks that. That way of thinking is disgusting. History education in your country should be more thorough, it would be humbling. as it would here in the UK probably.

If that stupid wan*** hadnt decided he would like to be expansionist the fact is is that we would be around 15 years behind technology. A statement by one US textiles expert after the war sums it up nicely.

“…..we found 10000 new dyes, in colours we(allies) couldnt make and new more efficient processes…..this jumps us ahead about 10 years…..”

This obviously is to our advantage, but of course wasnt worth the waste in such good human life.

again if that bumbling idiot hadn’t made the mistakes he did we would all prob not be here(for example I have dark hair and brown eyes)

Knowing what I do now, I would have been a very worried brit during WW2 because the germans were extremely advanced technologically. and if allowed the materials the things coming out of germany by 1944 would have shot us to ##### (an engine immobiliser effective over 2 kms, as long as the engine was magneto driven, was one such design) There are other such ‘experiments’ which are beyond the average persons comprehension….including mine…….for instance there are rumours of the germans using a torsion bell type object to influence the zero point energy field(imagine this as ‘background energy’ like there is a cosmic background that needs to be taken in to account with any radiological investigations of the stars). this is a virtually endless energy source, so it has infinite possibilities, in areas such as field manipulation(hint, if you can put yourself in a field you can isolate yourself from the universe, and thus time, in effect elevating you to another dimension….at least thats my understanding!).

Stuff like that is cosmically ahead of our time, and immediately disappeared along with the people working on it after the war….it was this sort of thing that could solve the problems of flying saucers darting about the sky at stupid speeds, and halting immediatley

However as with everything of this nature alot is conjecture, although there are a few clues if your willing to look hard enough.

wandering from the point a little ,but german technological ability is somthing to behold if used correctly.

Us brits on the other hand are probably a little jealous. Financially the german market aint so great, as i understand it. partly due to fines put in force by euro bosses because germany couldnt make some deadlines( the same as the spanish…i think….who didnt have to pay those fines!!). This is obviously without the compesation that would need to be paid if german backs out of some of its A400M order.

however Germany has emerged as a strong financial power base in europe, and i suppose allot of people would be averse to germany becoming ‘centre’ for europe, in my eyes, and personally, mainly for historic reasonings, personally I don’t think germany deserves it, but thats just personally of course, and is not meant at the individual german citizen.

As kev commented above, the break up of rover would have been a very very bad thing to happen in the midlands- a recession would have been almost immediate, a large area depends on the car industry for jobs.

in the end, its down to rivalry, every country has a stereotype, which is specific, in allowing mick taking. for example, the americans call us ‘limeys’ ( for no good reason, and quite outdated) even tho we do an awful lot of business with them……….and we take the piss mercilessley, because the americans lend themselves to this…….although the armed forces are equipped better than the brits in some areas……..american special forces love bergens I believe, and we prefer there water bottles( dont taste like liquid plastic, no matter what the drink).

Just the way it is……..

coanda

RE: Sociological question

I think Germans are regarded in a more inclusive fashion than the French. The “banter” one might have with a German is akin to that with a Scot or an Irishman – ie. insulting but not especially meant in bad taste.

At least Germans don’t walk around in skirts and carry sheep intestines around with them!

RE: Sociological question

Guys do not get me wrong,

I personally like you Britons a lot. And I like your country, but it happend so often to me that same of you came up with the Nazi theme again.
One time in Brighton when I was still in school, we made a excursion to there to meet a british sschool class. As long as the teachers where around everything was ok, but when we met in the evening we were greated with a freindly “Heil Führer”.

And 2 times in London , one time in a oub and one time at the Imperial War Museum I heard the Nazi sayings again. Both times someone obviously noticed that we were indeed talking german and thought to have “fun” with us.

Kev I only say I´m from Switzerland because it is much more simple. On Teneriffa I went to some british pubs as they had the better music and the people were much more fun then where the germans were drinking. Anyway again someone noticed my accent and asked so I told them I´m from Germany and guess what happens again …
Next time when I was asked I said I´m from switzerland and then we talked about how niche Switzerland is and so on, so pretty normal.

That is sad as most germans have a lot of sympathy for you guys today. Honestly we do like the french much less. Even football matches against you are nothing that special, except that we are playing a really great opponent and that the games are mostly good.

Anyway I´m not avoiding you guys anywhere, I just want spent my holidays in the UK and that is to a very larger precentage beacuse of the weather. 🙂

RE: Sociological question

we get on great with each other and were jsut ;palying.

like america but on a smaller sacel the mases. proleteriat, socail broups C, B ,etc, edtc, etc are pretty isolationist. they are anti european and everything because we don’t traval far. if they do they go to spain wheer everyone speaks english.

for instance we at my school all learnt germans for a niumnber of yaers. when some people got really anoyed about say homework they called the teachers nazis but we speant years learning germans (never worked on me im afraid). when we wne t to germany we never called any of you nazis, jew killer or anything. also the other day we had a german kid in class on exchange, we made no mention of it becasue it is relevant.

as i said we are jsut playing with you or its just insualr isolationsit peopel who don’t know anyhting aboutnthe wrold.

seriosuly im deeply upset that you feel youve been put off coming here becasue of this. on a simliar line one of our teacher who is englsih, and does german and speaks french with a greman accent told us how he infance herd and taleked to the french about the english french relationship and found thefrench didn’t liek us much.

on behalf of our country i apolgise

rabie :9

RE: Sociological question

Seahawk,

“Sure as obviously every german younger then 55 was involved in the war. No doubt that the people involved in WW2 have a right to hate the enemy for what happened there (Although I know many Vets even feel some kind of respect for the other side), but why should a 20 years old Brit hat the germans for WW2 ?”

No-one is suggesting that as you say every German younger than 55 was involved. It is important to remember that the greatest losses to the UK have come in wars involving Germany. I in no way hate Germans or Germany and indeed have the utmost respect for many of the ordinary German soldiers who fought and died. As for a 20 year old Brit hating Germans, that probably is the product of a society which needs someone to hate. Don’t think it’s only you though. Football fans of the same club will happily fight each other when no-one else is available.

“It is not funny to always hear “Heil Führer” when saying you are german. So after my 5th visit I decided to avoid the UK as a holiday
option and only come to the UK when on business trips.”

That is unforgiveable and it is really sad that you should avoid this country for that reason. However, I also find it strange that you would choose to deny your country just for an easy ride.

These opinions are mine and may run entirely contrary to the rest of British public opinion. There is however a balance. I remember reading somewhere during the Gulf War that the RAF Tornado crews were more than happy to have Luftwaffe crews providing escort or cover.

Regards,

kev35

RE: Sociological question

>Hi ink.
>
>”Considering there hasn’t been a war on English soil for
>almost a thousand years it often preplexes me how much
>hatred can be mustered.”
>
>What about the Civil War and the wars of the roses?
>
>England, actually the United Kingdom has been involved in
>many wars abroad as you know. If you wonder about the depth
>of feeling particularly among those of a certain age, toward
>the Germans and Japanese, have a wander around your local
>war memorial, I’m sure you won’t have to go far to find one.
>Then look at the names, really look. How many brothers?
>Fathers and sons? Then go and find out a bit about them, put
>a face to the name. Find a cause of death, where they were
>buried, or do they not have even the comfort of a grave?
>Some of these people have living relatives. How could you
>forgive a nation which starved, tortured, and finally killed
>a relative of yours on the Burma railway? Or a brother shot
>by the Gestapo for the incident portrayed in the ‘Great
>Escape’?
>
>I mean you no disrespect but you are not British by birth.
>For many it is still too soon to forgive and it will never
>be time to forget.
>
>Regards,

Sure as obviously every german younger then 55 was involved in the war.
No doubt that the people involved in WW2 have a right to hate the enemy for what happened there (Although I know many Vets even feel some kind of respect for the other side), but why should a 20 years old Brit hat the germans for WW2 ?
That is something I never understand. I have been to england a quite a few times but I always lied that I´m from Switzerland just to avoid the hassle when you say you are german.
Imo this behavior has nothing to do with WW2 it is just a kind of a british problem with germans in general.
It is not funny to always hear “Heil Führer” when saying you are german.
So after my 5th visit I decided to avoid the UK as a holiday option and only come to the UK when on business trips.