It's official! Virgin USA from San Fransisco!

Just the rules of competition.

Correct, however, that goes back to WD’s original post.

I think it’s cool that a new airline is starting up, and all (especially on the west coast), but everything WD says makes sense. Virtually every airline in the U.S. is struggling financially, and the fuel prices surely aren’t helping. Throwing another player into the mix, a loco at that, forces everybody to lower their fares on particular routes. That may be great for me the traveler, but for the established airlines trying desparately to get back to profitability, what does it do for them, and the roughly 10,000 pilots that don’t have jobs?

Just the rules of competition.

I think it’s cool that a new airline is starting up, and all (especially on the west coast), but everything WD says makes sense. Virtually every airline in the U.S. is struggling financially, and the fuel prices surely aren’t helping. Throwing another player into the mix, a loco at that, forces everybody to lower their fares on particular routes. That may be great for me the traveler, but for the established airlines trying desparately to get back to profitability, what does it do for them, and the roughly 10,000 pilots that don’t have jobs?

The reason that they and a lot of the other pilots in the industry got furloughed and still remain so after almost 3 years is that there are too many planes in the system. We’ve all seen the pictures of the planes in the desert and most aren’t going to come out. Yes competition is good but there are situations where too much competition is dangerous. Last thing we need is another CEO thinking that his 30 airplanes will be what cures the industry.

This subject is quite seperate from the issue of cabotage though.

Happy June 6th to you too.

Ugh, don’t confuse this with a “free market” or purposefully do so just to politically charge this topic. Transportation is basically a utility, a utility that has huge capital startup and maintenance requirements. Because of the domestic reliance on this utility (in the US or any other country) foreign ownership or operation is dangerous. If the US were to establish a LLC airline in Berlin that ended up with 25% of the marketshare, that 25% would be dependant on US economic stability. Our economy tanks and that 25% share would suffer at the expense of the German traveling public.

On the other hand if the German economy tanked and the domestic carriers suffered equally then that same US owned company would have an unfair advantage (ie financial backing of a economically sound country). That US airline could now further harm the domestic carriers by offering low fairs without financial penalty while the domestic carriers would lose just by attempting to match them.

It’s the same reason why we don’t see foreign ownership/operation of other utilities such as electricity or water. Last thing any side wants to see is foreign policy or actions disrupt domestic bliss.

It might work different in a true World Economy, similar to what has started with the EU, but attempting to bridge that gap prematurely with cabotage without that unified economy isn’t good for business. There’s nothing wrong with self-preservation.

No offense mate. Thanks for your wishes , we owe so much to the Brits , Canadian , American etc during this dark period of our history.
I took my mother in law to Omaha beach and to the American cimetery 2 years ago. She served in the marines and she was really moved.

About Virgin, my intention isn’t to bring this on the political field.
However competition does exist. (Not enough in France if you ask).
Easyjet has many routes between Paris , and Nice , Toulouse etc.
That’s just competition.
I know that’s hard for you guys in the industry, but look , I suppose that many guys from UA who got laid off after 9/11 in the bay area , might find a job with virgin.

I do not agree with that. For you airplanes are public transport, in Europe it is rail companies and bus companies. In many European countries the rail and bus companies are privatised. Results are very mixed I’ll grant you that, from the ratty UK rail to the rather good Dutch rail.

And every airline in the US is privatized and we also have rail and bus companies. Our rail for the most part is state or city owned/operated with some exceptions. Buses are all private. Aviation can be seen as equally “public” in Europe as it is in the US. Heck, with some of the prices I’ve seen the aviation buffs here post, aviation in Europe is even more public. The point?

My local bus and train company, Syntus, is owned by a consortium including Dutch train and bus companies as well as a large French company. In the UK a lot of public transport companies are (part-) owned by French companies.

And here train companies are owned/operated by State or City governments while bus companies are either city government operations or private. But what does that have to do with the ability for a foreign interest group to operate domestically? I’m not talking about internal funding of utilities or transit infrastructure, I’m talking about interaction between 2 seperate economic systems.

That’s just passenger transport. When we get round to freight transport things change even further. My logistics teacher once said that in the whole of the (enlarged) EU over 70% of transport is done by Dutch owned companies. These figures are strongest in river-shipping and lorries. It does not seem to worry anyone!

That’s great that it works over there but our economy is separate from the EU’s.

Every country in the EU (with the GB exception) is on the same monatary system with that currancy being traded equally no matter the country it originated from. That is as close to a “world” market out there. Europe is different than the US, just as the US is different than the EU. I understand that the lines between international trade and business are more blurred in the EU but they aren’t between the EU and US. An insertion of one can adversely affect the other.

Currently in the US there are somewhere between 7000-10000 furloughed pilots. We have an unmanageable surplus of available seats (ie too many aircraft) that is hampering our industry recovery. Possible liquidation from United or USAirways would free a bit of the burden of those access available seats but liquidation isn’t a guarantee. Now we have a foreign carrier/investor attempting to establish a new airline which would only add to our industry issues. The last thing we need is a new airline.

With foreign investing the VirginUSA project is insulated from our industry problems. That will only further deepen our problems. At least now, everyone is dealing with the same deck of cards but that will change with VirginUSA entering.

I do not agree with that. For you airplanes are public transport, in Europe it is rail companies and bus companies. In many European countries the rail and bus companies are privatised. Results are very mixed I’ll grant you that, from the ratty UK rail to the rather good Dutch rail.

My local bus and train company, Syntus, is owned by a consortium including Dutch train and bus companies as well as a large French company. In the UK a lot of public transport companies are (part-) owned by French companies.

That’s just passenger transport. When we get round to freight transport things change even further. My logistics teacher once said that in the whole of the (enlarged) EU over 70% of transport is done by Dutch owned companies. These figures are strongest in river-shipping and lorries. It does not seem to worry anyone!

Happy June 6th to you too.

Ugh, don’t confuse this with a “free market” or purposefully do so just to politically charge this topic. Transportation is basically a utility, a utility that has huge capital startup and maintenance requirements. Because of the domestic reliance on this utility (in the US or any other country) foreign ownership or operation is dangerous. If the US were to establish a LLC airline in Berlin that ended up with 25% of the marketshare, that 25% would be dependant on US economic stability. Our economy tanks and that 25% share would suffer at the expense of the German traveling public.

On the other hand if the German economy tanked and the domestic carriers suffered equally then that same US owned company would have an unfair advantage (ie financial backing of a economically sound country). That US airline could now further harm the domestic carriers by offering low fairs without financial penalty while the domestic carriers would lose just by attempting to match them.

It’s the same reason why we don’t see foreign ownership/operation of other utilities such as electricity or water. Last thing any side wants to see is foreign policy or actions disrupt domestic bliss.

It might work different in a true World Economy, similar to what has started with the EU, but attempting to bridge that gap prematurely with cabotage without that unified economy isn’t good for business. There’s nothing wrong with self-preservation.

Those in the industry think this sucks. Branson has just worked the system to base a foreign carrier on US soil. Cabotage. We have enough issues, especially with the current economic state, with our airline industry and the entrance of another LLC (especially a foreign one) only hurts the other airlines more. He’s “basing” VirginUSA in NYC so it appears as a domestic carrier but with financing for the aircraft, airline infrastructure and marketing coming from overseas.

What a strange vision of the “free market” invented by the US.
You want a free market with protectionnism on your soil? Is that it?

It was always the logical choice with Jetblue already well and truely established at JFK, they wouldn’t have stood a choice.
Although, I’ve heard of worries about the weather at SFO?

Im delighted to hear they have finnaly choosen their hub.Whats do the Americans think about this ?

Those in the industry think this sucks. Branson has just worked the system to base a foreign carrier on US soil. Cabotage. We have enough issues, especially with the current economic state, with our airline industry and the entrance of another LLC (especially a foreign one) only hurts the other airlines more. He’s “basing” VirginUSA in NYC so it appears as a domestic carrier but with financing for the aircraft, airline infrastructure and marketing coming from overseas.

Nice !!!
Virgin is slowly covering the globe.
Can we see some day Virgin Middle East?? I mean there’s a huge gap between europe and australia, and now that Virgin USA is born. What do you think?

SFO sounds good.

Logical choice. It sounds good to me and that’s very good for the Bay area.

Im delighted to hear they have finnaly choosen their hub.Whats do the Americans think about this ?