Pilots! Please Help

BA don’t own any ab initio flying establishments (Hamble anyone? – I don’t mean the Play School doll either!). They use several, Lake Michigan used to be one, in the past BAe, OAT, Cabair etc.

Didn’t go to uni so can’t help there – not smart enough or rich enough!

Sounds like you may be looking at one of the outfits I’ve considerd. Happy to divulge but not publicly. Contact me via e-mail and I’ll let you know what i know (such as it is!). You may be able to fill me in on a few details myself.

PS. Not on TCX60 on 23/07 outbound or TCX60 30/7 inbound?

Skypilot62, I’m 757-200/300 TCX@LGW. Whiskey Delta is also ERJ145 (and Beech 1900 before that) in the States. Are you able to divulge where you are looking at heading to? I’ve currently got an opportunity to go long haul freight onthe B744 with a quick command but am in 2 minds as to whether I want the long haul lifestyle again.

Just a quick question, how long does the university training take ?
any good recommendations for a particular university?

what usually happens afterwards, offer from an airline or pack your backs and start searching?

I have some idea that there is a BA training faciliaty in Tampa,FL is this true?

rough guess to cost what would be a sufficient amount for a good univiversity?

Cheers in advance.

Florida Dude

LBARULES – Glad it didn’t send you off to sleep! As an aside, apart from the officer hanger exercises, the selection my Airline ran for sponsorship was administered by the RAF and had a GAPAN involvement too – the upshot meant going to RAF Cranwell for the aptitude tests and interviews, other airlines also use elements of the RAF’s aptitude computer tests under licence at their own facilities.

Wysi – ERJ-145 (although watch this space!) BACX @ MAN

You?

Martin – I think your involvement at Enstone just adds to your commitment to succeed. Everything counts when selling yourself to an employer/sponsor. I even spent a few months as a professional prop swinger at the Tiger Club in the mid-eighties which became a useful discussion point at interview. The interviewers enjoyed being able to discuss something other than A to B in a Cessna!

Skypilot 62 – What type are you flying now and who with?

Thanks alot mate made interesting reading.
I dont really want to go in the RAF but I dont want to get into 10s of thousands of pounds into debt paying for training. Of course you can get sponsorship but thats very hard to get.
Just considering all the options.

LBARULES:

Consider the other advice given and then add in the RAF issues. The selection is similar but quite alot different too. The RAF is used for all service flying selection. They look for officer qualities as well as pilot apptitude so you have to do well in other aspects that may not be so closely looked at by commercial airlines. It’s a very different type of flying too.

My suggestions:

Air Training Corps/CCF (virtually a must), cram everything you can into your time e.g. DofE, camps, sports, AEF flying , leadership courses etc. These all add serious weight to your cause, bearing in mind the age limit for pilot is only 17.5 – 23.5 yrs, so you’ll have a hard time showing much experience with so few years. Highly advise applying for a flying scholarship at 17 and/or a gliding scholarship at 16. Again, free flying plus the flying scholarship selection has some of the elements used for RAF pilot/nav selction so would be a good indicator of your future prospects, without blowing either of your 2 chances to apply “for real”

Min Requirements are 2 A levels and 5 GCSE’s. Bear in mind as for civvy flying, art, drama & home economics won’t be as useful as Physics, Chemistry & Biology. It doesn’t mean they’re better subjects but they do show a track record and aptitude for academic learning and retention. Bear in mind all training establishments, forces or civvy are trying to pick the candidates most likely to pass flying training and academic studies form a large part of this training so they’ll look to keep the risk potential low, hence psychometric tests and aptitude testing.

If you go for a degree, consider a scholarship and the UAS (university air squadron). Whilst a scholarship ( Sixth Form or university) will involve a service commitment, you can join the UAS regardless of whether you want to join the RAF and you get 1st class flying for free.

Keep very up to date on current affairs, by that I don’t mean who’s sleeping with who in Hollywood! Read a quality Broadsheet newspaper. In at least one of the 2 interviews you’ll get at selection, you’ll be asked about one or two major world events, normally of your choosing, and be asked what you know and understand of the situation (in my day it was the post-Gulf war era and Former Yugoslavia). It’s no good trying to BS – they can spot it before you even open your mouth! There’s also a list of recommended books to read before you go, some of which were long out of print so were hard to find (maybe that was part of the aptitude tests?!!)

Don’t believe the old yarn about aceing the aptitude tests by playing PS2 games etc. – it’s big fibs, you’ve either got the skills in you or you haven’t. It’s nigh on impossible to create them if you don’t have them. That said, you don’t need to be Superman either, even I passed, and I didn’t even have an Atari console as a kid! (Although I conned the wife that buying an N64 when they came out might help!!). The tests are in batches and are a mix of computer based questions and problem solving against the clock to test accuracy under pressure. The problems aren’t mega tough but with the clock running it creates stress. Other skills are memory tests, and reactions. Bung in some outdoor pursuit type leadership exercises/problems (which are great fun too!) in the big hangar, a full on medical (cough, cough) and a couple of interviews and you’ve got it sussed. the whole process takes 3 days at RAF Cranwell (RAF Biggin Hill when I went for selection) and you can be chopped at any stage. Even if you stay till the end, it doesn’t necessarily mean you’ve passed. You still have to wait a couple of weeks to see if you’ve been accepted.

I’m not trying to put you off, but just help you realise it is VERY tough, but not impossible. All RAF aircrew are human bings (well, most of them) and are on the whole very ordinary to speak to and meet. You’ve as much chance as the next person. Just concentrate on your schooling for now, and cross the other bridges as they come, but I cannot over recommend the ATC or CCF as a foot in the proverbial door.

And for the record, I did pass OASC! (twice in fact…another story!)

Anyone still awake and wanting more info, feel free to contact me or check out the RAF careers office and website – I’m sure alot of the info can be found there.

As Wysi said “What a great selection of responses”

My only input, other than what has already been written, is that you must have a HUGE, and I mean Huge amount of determination and dedication.

I went solo at 17 and never looked back. But, I had to work to pay for my flying and use my leave to undertake the flying courses. I had to sacrifice holidays, clothes, cars, nights out, all luxuries etc.

Another thing that helps is making contacts in the aviaition industry. I was lucky enough to be on the same CPL ground school as Wysiwyg, and we have been good friends since then. I even bought a share in an aeroplane off of him. He also helped me get my first commercial job a few years ago, which I have, and always will be eternally grateful for.
I then served 2yrs flying a turbo prop, and this coupled with my dedication and determination I managed to secure my dream job flying the 747-400, for one of the best airlines in the world.

I started at 17, and I have just been able to sit back and enjoy the rewards of being a pilot at 30. So take note that it doesn’t happen over night, it took me 13yrs… Good Luck with your dreams.

Your replies have been great.
I too am 14 and all I do when I get older is be a commercial pilot.
I am considering going into the RAF and then been a commercial pilot when I leave. Can anyone enlighten me anymore on the RAF? Thanks In Advance.

wysiwyg, I’m so glad you mentioned hanging around at the nearest flight school etc. I wasn’t sure if I would get credit for this, but I used to work at Enstone Airfield just doing any odd jobs they had in a formal arrangement I would get free flying in return. I used to go up with all sorts of people including Richard Branson’s best mate!

As I think I’ve said before, next month all my major interviews take place including the one for OAT so I’m already planning my interview techniques, but to put it in the most pleasent way possible I’m already shaking with nerves!

What a great selection of responses. The only thing I can add is to do everything in your power to immerse yourself in aviation in less obvious ways. By that I mean perhaps trying to get involved in helping out at Duxford or any local airfield. You’ll find all sorts of useful experience coupled with contacts who may become invaluable through places like these. Definitely join the Air Cadets as suggested above and try to steer any educational choices you have towards those that will help you towards a flying career (i.e. Maths isn’t absolutrely essential but having studied it to a reasonable level will certainly make life easier when you’re training to be a pilot). The reason I stress these particular points is that these are the things that will sell you onto a sponsorship or show an aviation employer you have the dedication to be the one he should employ.

Here’s how it wotked for me –
Started hanging about at a gliding club aged 12. Spent all my school holidays bumming around the gliding club getting myself a reputation as a helpful, willing sort of chap. Went solo in a glider on 16th birthday and managed to cajole the parents into helping me do a short conversion for a PPL due to my gliding experience. PPL completed age 17 and all school holidays spent working as a hanger rat in exchange for flying, etc. All other days were spent tugging gliders in old crop sprayers. Left school at 18 with A levels in Maths, Physics and one other and took a boring office job but then a friend had to turn down an opportunity to be a professional instructor in gliders and motor gliders. I stepped in to save the day and spent 2 years as a professional instructor. Left to join the airlines as cabin crew (just networking higher up the scale) having met a lot of airline crews through the flying clubs. carried on instructing and glider towing on my days off while working towards commercial. Got fed up with instructing and towing so I got involved with ultra cheap PFA open cockpit VW powered aeroplanes which I could maintain myself. I even had one aeroplane that I kept in the driveway at home! 17 years after I started I finally found myself flying a commercial turboprop for little money and the rest is history to everyone on this site. Do yourself a favour, if you can buy your way in do it. I had great fun along the way but I really don’t know if I could go through all that again.

Just to add my tuppence worth…

I too wanted to fly from about 3 years old (can’t remember a time when I didn’t want to be a pilot), and despite the obstacles in your way the only thing preventing you from acheiving it will be your determination. The sight of flying home over the Alps at 37,000′ never gets boring!

Some suggestions:

As recommended, sponsership is the way to go if you can. The main advantage I feel is the guarantee of a job. On my course at Bae some 5 years ago, out of 16 only around 5 or 6 have flying jobs, the rest are still looking or failed to qualify. I was fortunate and had sponsorship.

At 14, I’d recommend the Air training Corps, not becauuse you need to, but it gets you more flying opportunities and it’s good for the CV – shows you’ve done something different from the bus-stop lads who “fancy flying a ‘plane” (It is ALWAYS an aeroplane or aircraft, never a ‘plane!).

Education – minimum is 5 GSCE’s in English Maths & Physics, usually 2 Alevels and a relevant degree won’t hurt either! The more Maths & Physics, the easier you’ll find the ATPL exams!

Speak to as many professional aircrew as possible, i.e. people doing the job you want to do. Inside knowledge is very useful, but listen, don’t be a know-it-all. Most of us, and ,my colleagues love to talk “shop” to genuine enthusiastic “wannabes” (We all were once!). It’s the weird anoraks who worry me (“Ah yes, I’ve flown to Geneva. Can be a bit tricky can’t it? (Turns out he has FS 2000))

Above all, if you really want it, go for it. It took me until i was 26 to get what i wanted, but the slog is worth it and i never gave up.

Feel free to e-mail me if you want any more info. I’m sure most others would encourage the same.

MINIDOH, there are a couple of things in your post that I would like to add something to. Getting a PPL prior to starting training is a real no no. The majority of decent training schools now only offer ab-initio courses and don’t like pilots having a PPL prior to commencing training. So do not get your PPL before training, you are much more likely to be given credit for doing some casual flying otherwise the schools tend to feel that you have been taught by someone elses rules.

wannabe pilot, your story is very fimilar to me, being a pilot is all I’ve wanted to do since I was 6. Twelve years down the line I am now starting to get to where I want to be and I’m currently in the process of applying to flight schools.
I wrote the following in a similar post, I hope it helps:

“Sponsorship just isn’t happening at the moment, my sources at BA tell me they plan to restart by the end of 2004, but this isn’t looking very likely at the moment. In fact many experts I’ve spoken to don’t expect airline recruitment to ever return to it’s pre 9/11 state.

The easyJet sponsorship deal looks good, but you’ll actually end up paying a lot more than normal training as they need you to pay bonds, plus the chance of acceptance is minimal and like any training course you’re not garenteed a job. Your wage will also be very small after completing the easyJet course if you do actually get a placement with the airline.

I’m going to be training at OAT all being well, I’m having my full interviews next month. OAT is a very good school and has connections with bmi and several other major airlines, however it is VERY expensive. My training there will cost £62,000, but as I live in Oxford I don’t have to pay living costs. The total cost of the course at OAT is £72,000 which includes three and a half months in Texas for your VFR training. However, Oxford provides some of the best training in the world.

Other good schools are Cabair in Cranfield near Cambridge, the total for the training there is £47,750, or if you pay up front it’s £45,000. Cabair is a good school as well, but doesn’t provide some of the extras that you may find at other schools. However I would recommend it, I took a long look round and I liked it a lot, it’s currently my second choice.

BAe Systems moved their training school from Glasgow Prestwick to Jerez in Spain a few years ago and provide very good training for a similiar price to Cabair.

There are also a lot of great schools out in the states where you can train from £20,000. However you will need to convert your license from a FAA license to a JAA one.

Minidoh made a small mistake, you need to get at least a CPL to start teaching. It is a good way to build up your hours. But I’d recommend you get your full ATPL so that you don’t need to go back to training school when you want to join an airline.

These days a lot of airlines expect you to pay for your own type rating as well which costs roughly £18,000, but don’t pay for one of these until you actually are offered a job.

As wysiwyg says, the job market is extremely competitive and not in a great state at all at the moment. Ryanair and easyJet will be employing around 3000 new first officers in the next few years, but these jobs will be hard to come by. Getting a job is extremely tough, so before you fork out what could be up to £100,000 make sure you are 100% commited and be prepared to have to wait a long time before getting a job.

In terms of loans, it is very hard to secure a full loan, some schools can provide you with a loan for up to 50% but not much more. The APR on a loan for flight training is generally much lower than average, but you must start paying the loan back six months after you have finished training. HSBC are the only UK bank that even consider giving loans to trainee pilots.”

But if you really want it and you work hard enough at it you’ll get there. Good luck mate and I hope to see you in the skies some day soon I hope this helps!

My advice would be to continue to gain flying, but for a lad of 14 you do have quite a lot. Im only 16, but I also started fying when i was 14. The problem with it is, quite simply, youre too young. Wait for a little bit, and then once you have taken youre GCSE’s, that summer (this summer now for me!) try and fly solo. If you gain too many hours before that in my opinion it would not a waste of money, but money that would be better spent later on.
Ok, once you have left school etc you need to be ready to apply to airlines. To be honest, sponsorship is almost non existent at the moment, but dont let that stop you applying. They might want to have you as a pilot because you will show how commited you are by gaining a PPL. If you cant get the sponsorship, then im afraid it may be tough times ahead! But DONT LET THAT PUT YOU OFF!! Basically, without sponsorship, you need to find about £52,000. Thats big money, and it wont be easy paying it off. University graduates leave university with about £15,000 debt, and they find that very very hard to pay off.
From what I know, and from what other pilots have told me (know about 6 airline pilots), there are two options from there.
1: Get a loan with the help from an airline, and lets say you were going to apply to Easyjet, you would take out a £52,000 loan at a 5.25% APR, and pay it off over 7 years working for the airline. CTCMcAlpine train their pilots.
Option 2: Get an instructor rating and become an instructor for a few years and build up youre hour from there.
Do google searches for these websites, they may have more information:
CTCMcAlpine
BAe flight training, Jerez in spain
Oxford Aviation (www.oxfordaviation.net)
Cabair Training college.

Hope this has been of some help, and by the way, my advice will be less usefull than someone like Skycruiser and Wys, so if our information conflicts, take their word for it!!

now wait fr Wys the whiz and Skycruiser!:p