2023: Avro Vulcan XH558 will have to leave Doncaster Sheffield/ RAF Finningley….

Ouch indeed, thats why it was a Goblin !

It will take more than spanners. 

Good money making opportunity though. Deckchairs, popcorn, fizzy drinks. Could be a bit slow.  

I once witnessed an engine removal from a Vampire at Leeming (late 70s?). Weight of engine being taken largely by the hangar hoist, one last bolt to remove… Tip. Use a drift, NOT a finger. Ouch! Not for the squeamish. 

In short, spanners at the ready!

Is it just the CAA thats needs to approve a ferry flight or the CAAand the airframe and engine type holders as well?

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I understand there appears sceptical support, for this project, on the forum going forward in particular regards a ferry flight. But I would like to clear up a point that I made earlier in the thread.

I spoke about the Safety Case….

A Safety Case is a documented record of the steps or processes undertaken by the system concerned and evidence that the system has been designed, tested and implemented as safely as is reasonably practicable.

Each flight safety critical system will be identified, along with its OEM, hazards and corresponding safety risks. Also included would be the significance of the hazards in the terms of their likelihood of occurrence (failure) and potential effects on the safe operation of an impacted aircraft. Failure mitigation would also expect to be included (duplicated systems Etc).

Also expected to be identified is the aircraft type top-level OEM (more commonly referred to as the Design Authority (DA)). As I remember BAE formally handed the DA responsibility for XH558 to Marshalls Aerospace at the time of restoration.

So, it should be clear that any OEM, or DA who does not support their part of the Safety Case will “punch a hole” in the idea that their equipment can be used. However, the final arbitrators of civil aircraft safety for aircraft on the UK Civil Register or being proposed for entry is the UK CAA.

That is as I hinted previously only written / presented in a slightly different way now.

The Safety Case itself is a top-level engineering management document. Last time such a document appeared on my desk, for review, it contained close to 800 pages. Granted each example is different but in my experience 800 pages is about the norm.

If the aircraft Safety Case process is managed correctly safe operation will result. However, get it wrong and you will see the results as per recent B737 Max 8 and further back RAF Nimrod MR2 XV230 – to name but two examples.

Hence my comment previously about a sporty timeline. Because as has been pointed out a number of the OEM’s withdrew support and as a result XH558 was grounded in the Autumn of 2015.

I think I understand why they would like to fly it out of SDA. The reason is more of logistics than vanity. But I fear it maybe a mountain to high to climb. Delivery by road has its own issues – but does mitigate the flight safety issues of course.

Time will tell!

I operate in the Military Air Environment and don’t think for one minute the Military Airworthiness Authority (MAA) would allow its inclusion on the Military Aircraft Register. In the modern era, post XV230, the requirements are equal to if not more robust than that of the UK Civil Register.

A few months ago, VC10 K3 ZA150, at Dunsfold, was placed on the US Civil Register as N150ZA initially for the purpose of a ferry flight to another UK location for restoration to flight. It is quite possible, of course, that the US FAA have a more laxed rule re ferry flights – but I doubt it.

Im astounded that they have been touting this “ferry flight” rubbish. There is NO WAY on this earth that the CAA will allow it fly as there is no support from any of the OEM’s. Its not been maintained to a fully airworthy standard since it last flew (no disrespect to the team) so will need an effective rebuild again for this one flight.

Apparently, a few VC-10’s were permitted a short ferry flight (some with U/S engines) many years ago, but these were under the control of the RAF which is a totally different thing to allowing a civilian vulcan to operate.

Now i supposed if the RAF took back ‘558 it might be possible, but any expectation that it will fly again under a civilian set up is just a pipe dream.

i have heard that “a company” is willing to take on all the design authority and underwrite the work for a ferry flight. but ill believe it when i see it.

There was NO £6.5 million of public donations. There was £6.5 million of public donations directly to VTTS, solely FOR THE VULCAN.

Other than that, it did not exist and would not have existed so couldn’t have been spent on anything.

As for the original promise about delivery to Duxford, I seem to recall nobody asked Duxford if they wanted it, which would seem unlikely as they’ve already got a Vulcan.

I very much doubt it’s going to consume any more money as people have had enough and the costs will be enormous.

I hope I’m wrong but I fear saucepans…

So 3 of the 9 Million pounds came from taxpayer funds that likely would have preserved something more tangible across many other UK Heritage projects than a fleeting aerial display of a once grounded type which is again grounded, lets not even bother to question what better purpose the 6.5 million pounds of “public donations” might have lent its support to as an alternative?

The project was always a folly and a giant waste of funds, now VTTS will waste time and effort on calling for donations to make it “airworthy” for a seemingly not viable “ferry flight” and move to a new site where even more donations to build a new museum built around one aeroplane which has 13 other “twins” sitting in 13 other existing museums.

Relocation via Disassembly, road transport and reassembly will equally consume more yet to be donated funds still without a certain end destination- and still will come the call for even more donations to build the VTTS Ivory Tower “museum” that will likely suffer the same failure as the Doncaster proposal?

What happened to the original promise to the Heritage Lottery for their 3 Million pounds that the aircraft would be delivered to and donated to Duxford at the end of its flying life?, what happened was that VTTS become more focused on its ongoing existence and prosperity than the aviation heritage it was formed to support.

After 9 Million UK pounds how much more funding is this “money pit” going to consume? – enough is enough!

I’m not going to be drawn further on the possible future location of XH558 other than what I said in my previous post.

I understand that LCC withdrew from that Scampton development project many years ago, which at one point did actually show a Vulcan facility on the overall site plan.

In more recent times some interest has been tabled by a couple of ‘developers’, who have proposed similar schemes; the word locally is that these have attracted mixed views on their proposals.  

Two destination sites are under consideration at the moment and one is not available. Now before a mad scramble to guess where and what I do seem to recall that Lincolnshire County Council wanted to purchase Scampton to develop it into a sort of Northern Duxford type set up but that is not available yet. Next year I believe when the reds move to Waddo it will be available. Where better than another ex Vulcan base than Scampton.

Have I hit the nail on the head or have I added yet another venue for consideration ?

Please stop going on about this non-existent pot of cash.

Some of the £2.75 million may have gone to historic aviation but it wouldn’t have bought Bruntingthorpe and built a museum, it would have been dished out in dribs and drabs.

I seem to recall it only went to the Vulcan, reluctantly, after a presumably orchestrated public outcry.

The other £6.5 million or so was largely public donations.

VTTS discovered that as soon as XH558 was grounded, the income stream dried up and they were unable to pay for a lease, long-term storage or build the mooted academy building and adjacent hangar.

Return to flying? Unless the aircraft and systems have been subject to agreed continuing airworthiness maintenance then that will be an uphill task. 
 

With powered flying controls (no manual reversion), NDT,  Martin Baker seats, and the lack of many of the OEMs to call on for spares, perhaps start planning to dismantle before it’s too late? 

Is it just the CAA thats needs to approve a ferry flight or the CAAand the airframe and engine type holders as well?

from wiki for what its worth?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
 

On 15 May 2015 it was announced that 2015 would be XH558’s last flying season, due to the fact the three companies assisting the project with technical expertise (BAE Systems, Marshall Aerospace and Defence Group and Rolls-Royce) were unwilling to support the aircraft beyond that, meaning it would no longer have the necessary CAA approval to fly. According to the Trust, the companies arrived at the decision for two reasons – they were now entering uncertain territory regarding predicting future safety risks to continued flight due to the fact XH558 had already performed ten percent more flying hours than any other Vulcan, and secondly, the increasing difficulty in obtaining the necessary expertise, particularly with regard to the engines.[3][25]

Various options to continue flights beyond 2015 were considered and ultimately rejected for engineering, cost, practicality or other reasons outside of the Trust’s control – limiting the hours flown in 2015, building new Olympus engines and sourcing parts from other Vulcans, training new staff, using other technical authorities, and even relocating XH558 to another country.[26] As a result, following completion of the 2015 Farewell to Flight display season, XH558’s final ever flight occurred on 28 October 2015, a small display at its Doncaster Sheffield base.[1]

Future plansEdit

With XH558 now permanently grounded, the Trust intends to remain at Doncaster Sheffield Airport, and make the Vulcan the focus of a new educational and heritage facility. This is in part due to the Trust’s ongoing commitment to keep XH558 in good condition and use it for educational purposes, which they committed to do for 80 years as a condition of the 2005 Lottery funding. The first stage being to establish the Vulcan Aviation Academy & Heritage Centre. This will feature an academy building for 14–18 year olds, which will focus on “six areas of aviation skills: piloting, air traffic controls, airport ground operations, aircraft operations, cabin crew and aviation engineering”. XH558 will be housed in an adjacent heritage centre, where it will be maintained so as to be able to perform regular fast taxi runs, the frequency of which would be funding dependent. With less engineering required to support the Vulcan as a taxiable exhibit, the Trust’s associated engineering company was examining the possibility of setting up as an independent, CAA-approved, heritage aviation servicing operation. As a result of the new focus post-flight operations, the Trust’s additional base at Hinckley was also to close

Its all very well claiming there was no pot of cash waiting to be spent (on other heritage outcomes) and instead to suggest it was all raised from Joe Public and a few OEM manufacturers

– but then theres the facts?

@3 Million of them.

from the Heritage Lottery Fund – that would have flowed to other deserving Heritage projects, even possibly Aviation Heritage projects if they could muster the same PR campaign.

There is no significant lasting legacy of that money other than happy snaps, memories and another grounded static Vulcan sitting outside and without a permanent undercover home.

How does that add anything to all the happysnaps and memories everyone had of the type when in service or the 14 on static display since they were operationally grounded?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
23.06.04

‘Victory for Vulcan’ – XH558 will fly

The Vulcan to the Sky Team is celebrating!

£2,738,000 of funds granted to Vulcan to the Sky (VTS) will ensure that Avro
Vulcan XH558 passes to the nation for restoration, 10-15 years of display flight and to the Imperial War Museum, Duxford in perpetuity. The grant also enables a new programme of education, which will convey the story of The Cold War to the widest possible audience, many for the first time.

Following their Stage One Pass announced in December 2003 the Heritage
Lottery Fund (HLF) have agreed the grant to VTS which means that when the partnership funding is in place, the VTS Trustees can give the go ahead for restoration to commence.

Sheila Stone, Heritage Lottery Fund Regional Manager for the East Midlands

https://www.key.aero/forum/historic-aviation/28114-xh558-the-vulcan-wil…

I wish Chief Engineer Taff, and his team, the best of luck with this project. From where I’m sitting, they are working to a very sporty timeline to remove the aircraft by the end of June next. Where it finishes up and how it gets there is not going to be easy.

To enable a flight – all the flight safety critical systems will have to be removed and maintained to OEM specifications. That stands good for a 5 min flight as it does for a 30 min flight. With the business case / Safety Case signed off by the UK CAA.

I’m hearing rumours (that I’m not going to further elaborate here) that one of the possible destination sites has not even become available yet. Last time I checked two organisations were in the bidding to purchase that site from its current owner.

As a Cold War aviation historian and STEM Ambassador XH558’s future is of particular interest to me.

It’s all very well coming out – yet again – and saying “the money spent on the Vulcan could have saved etc” but the fact is, it wouldn’t have done.

There was no pot of cash waiting to be spent, it was raised from Joe Public, and a few OEM manufacturers, with the specific intention of returning one particular airframe to flight.

End of story, as VTTS found out when they came up with the pie in the sky project to return the one-time world altitude record holder Canberra to flight.

Admirable though the idea is, a Canberra has no place in the hearts of the Great British Public, as VTTS discovered when cash didn’t come flooding in. Did it even come trickling in?

I second the above.

This one Vulcan has consumed tens of millions of pounds that could have otherwise preserved and protected its brethren and other iconic british types (even Beverley’s facing an extinction event) and yet instead VTST still treat it as something “special”.

On the ground, it is just another grounded / static Vulcan, British Aviation Museums are full of them!.

Imagine instead if they had used all that money to secure Bruntingthorpe Runway and a hangar / museum site for the Vulcan, Victor and other aircraft to be displayed and then do ground/runway runs, there was the opportunity for a true “cold war” display that would keep the aircraft active and preserved.. Instead it flew so more british citizens could see it in the air, except from 2016 new generations are coming who didn’t see it and will never see it, no different from when the type was grounded in the first place!

There are 14 others in the UK in museums, 1 in Canada and 3 in the USA, this particular one has consumed Millions of pounds for a brief return to the air that instead could have funded roofs over all of its brethren and saved other unique types like the Blackburn Beverley from an extinction event.

The Hendon Vulcan arrived by road, it is a practicle prospect, but no doubt the cost is eye-watering.

The trouble is , it is just another Vulcan.  When it was a flyer, it was unique in that sense, now it is just another airframe, albeit one in excellant condtion. 

Such a sad outlook , i hope for the best but the way aviation history seems to be treated i just hope for a good outcome.