Maid of Harlech

Fly replicas: preserve the original. You can have both.

But what we see is wanton destruction; you wouldn’t expect it of Stonehenge (let’s finish it off and maybe stone clad it while we’re there?) but for some reason we are sleep-walking into this constant, repeated process with warbirds.

What we also see is a constant process of gaslighting and deliberate obtuseness to try and create a narrative about warbirds not being able to fly anymore. No-one’s ever said that, but any time you bring up the subject of destruction of artefacts you get the same deliberately-missed-the-point reply.

And these aircraft arguably belong to all of us; warbird owners should buy into the notion that they are custodians of our heritage. But money talks, and by the time people wake up, it will be too late for many.

While I don’t approve of crash site “body stealing”, look at it this way.

There is a mangled wreck somewhere, usually buried. Pretty much forgotten.

It is discovered and unearthed. What remains are corroded bits. 

The data plate is taken and used to establish an identity so the authorities (CAA or FAA) are satisfied that the resulting aeroplane conforms to standard.

The resulting aircraft flies for either commercial operators giving experience flights, or as someone’s toy…either way the people on the ground get enjoyment out of it and every time it is seen it acts as a memorial to the wartime designers, builders, maintainers and crews.

 I’m not sure that is all that bad.

The ” historic airframes” that have been scrapped likely would have remained buried if not for the value of the data plate and eventual aircraft. They would have been unseen and pretty much of no use to anyone in situ.

FlyPast did an article a few years ago about a Spitfire found in Belgium or the Netherlands. They printed a photo of the discovered remains laid out in the shape of the fighter. There wasn’t much left, and what there was, wasn’t worth viewing…even a dedicated aircraft enthusiast would look at it for a few minutes and say…’Well, what else is here?”.

It was one of the few times we got to see the unspoken secret of warbird building…that the aircraft we see fly really aren’t what they seem.

I’m okay with that.

Far from being “despicable”, its pragmatic. 

Turning nothing into something of value…yes, monetary value for thr owner, but also the value a warbird brings the public whenever it is seen.

Don’t blame the warbird industry for building what we want from them.

Perhaps ask the civil air authorities what a data plate is necessary. That way the wreckage can lay undisturbed, forgotten and unseen.

If one is that upset, ask a warbird firm whay they do with the unused recover bits. Sell pieces as moments to enthusiasts? Bury the lot? Recycle for a few quid?

“What part of “protected, nobody can lay a finger on it” don’t people understand?”

Just look at the many, many historic airframes that have been scrapped so that their data plate can be stuck on something else. For some reason our historic aircraft are only worth that: a data plate. I wouldn’t be surprised to find that someone has stolen it already. The warbird community can be a despicable place.

What part of “protected, nobody can lay a finger on it” don’t people understand?

Just look at the Goodwin Sands Dornier. A huge amount of effort and money  for something that will turn to dust very quickly.

I am all for saving aircraft though

Problem is recovery is a very expensive,probably catastrophic achievement now due to the fragility of the airframe.

Hi Monty,

Given that the P-38 with serial number 41-7677 is currently classified by the Welsh government’s historical environmental service as a protected monument to prevent looting by amateurs, if extra wave action causes sands covering the remainder of the aircraft to shift away from the aircraft in order to expose all of the airframe, the Imperial War Museum could have the Welsh government exempt the machine from protection to allow for the aircraft to be brought to storage room of the IWM. In this way, the organization TIGHAR of which you were a member should close down the Maid of Harlech Project.

J Boyle said, The media has looked the other way for years, probably afraid of lawsuits, which are much more difficult  for the plaintiff to win in the U.S.”

Yeah, you have to wonder why a small, single-issue non-profit needs two lawyers on its board of directors …

Have a journalist, with real credentials or assignment, contact RG with that question.

As the head of a income needing non-profit, he really CAN’T  not answer. Simply, if he does, it looks bad.

If he doesn’t, put out a news release to that effect.

The media has looked the other way for years, probably afraid of lawsuits, which are much more difficult  for the plaintiff to win in the U.S.

How much work is done is none.

I agree that nothing would preserve it and it’s also a fair bet that Cadw haven’t got a clue about aircraft wrecks so would err on the side of caution.

As I said, it can’t be touched.

Its a P38 shaped lump of aluminium oxide filled with sand and wont improve no matter how much work is done to preserve her.

So basically – bullpoop. Is making stuff up on a tax return an offense?

It cannot be recovered, full stop. Or period, as you say. It will always sit there decaying whether he likes it or not. “When the aircraft is recovered” is never.

One word – publicity.

When TIGHAR initially got involved in 2007, Gillespie stated on their website that, “Recognizing the Lightning’s historical significance as the oldest surviving Eighth Air Force combat veteran, and its potential as an object of study in corrosion research, TIGHAR has made a commitment to champion the aircraft’s recovery and preservation.”

Nothing happened, of course, except the aircraft was left to further decay. It’s still there on the beach, still decaying.

Gillespie also said, “Contributions to the Maid of Harlech Memorial Fund go to help cover TIGHAR’s expenses in advocating for the responsible recovery and conservation of Lockheed P-38F 41-7677. If you wish, you can make your donation of $100 or more in the name of any World War II veteran. When the aircraft is recovered, a permanent memorial with the names of the donors and honorees will accompany the P-38 to the accessioning museum.

In the meantime, we’ll send you a handsome Certificate of Recognition acknowledging your support in helping us make sure this priceless relic is preserved for future generations.”

So for at least $100, you got a nice-looking piece of paper that, to date, signifies … nothing.

I don’t think TIGHAR has spent anything on the P-38 in years – indicating on its tax forms that it did so is just part of the accumulation of errors that these forms now represent.

I meant what is it possible to spend money on?

The facts are known and nobody can touch the wreck.

What’s left?

dhfan said, “I fail to see how Gillespie can spend a single cent on the so-called Maid of Harlech.”

• The same way he can spend money on The Glenn Miller Investigation.
• The same way he can spend money on The Earhart Project.
• The same way he can spend money on Project Midnight Ghost.
• The same way he can spend money on Operation Sepulcher.
• The same way he can spend money on The Lady in Waiting.
• The same way he can spend money on The Devastator Project.

More than $9 million since 2000, and who knows how many million since 1985.

All have been failures to a greater or lesser degree.

Further obscuring things financial at TIGHAR, all links to their IRS 990 tax forms have recently been removed. If you search for their 990s on the TIGHAR website, you can find them. But only for 2013-2018 …

I fail to see how Gillespie can spend a single cent on the so-called Maid of Harlech.

The identity of the aircraft, the circumstances of the crash and the name of the pilot are all known.

Cadw, the Welsh equivalent of English Heritage, have listed it as a scheduled ancient monument which, very loosely, means nobody can touch it and certainly can’t recover it.

Scheduled Ancient Monument might seem a strange classification but that’s what it comes under. There’s a crane in Bristol’s floating harbour with the same listing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairbairn_steam_crane

Dr Felton is an interesting figure.

All I’d say is, his videos are for ‘entertainment’ purposes. A lot of what he presents are essentially read-aloud Wikipedia articles…

Probably just saw  ‘TIGHAR’ and ‘recover Maid of Harlech’ and just bunged in a little publicity for the group with minimum research.

I’m not sure anyone could persuade Dr. Felton at this late date, although there is always the assumed “truth in academia” bias that may help with that.

TIGHAR’s tax returns are no help in figuring out the status of that “project” – for its 2020 statement, it shows expenses of $72,097 on the Maid of Harlech, although there has been nothing discussed on the website, Facebook page or blog about that for the past year at least. The tax return also shows $0 being spent on TIGHAR’s Project Midnight Ghost, its so far failed search to find the remains of Nungesser and Coli’s aircraft. Although Gillespie just returned from another failed expedition to Newfoundland for that effort.

Curioser and curioser.

<blockquote>Long time lurker, first post. I’ve been watching Dr. Mark Felton’s YouTube channel through the pandemic. They are well researched and always interesting. I’ve found all the posts here on TIGHAR, enlightening. Dr. Felton’s latest video is on the Maid of Harlech. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeVOc2V-bGo fnf
He really dropped the ball on this one by promoting donations to TIGHAR. Could not have been written better if TIGHAR had written it themselves. Hopefully someone here wiser than me can convince him to remove the video or to redo the ending.</blockquote>

It may be challenging to convince Dr. Mark Felton, a prominent influencer, to remove the video or revise the ending as he has a significant following and autonomy over his content.