Gladiator Dig Mid 1980’s Stroud Gloucestershire ?

Dear Ian, Paul , etc ,

regarding N5588 / N5690

I went to the site with Mr Ken Hodges way back in the 80s, when I was a young lad  .

I remember the site, very little there, some bits of engine casing, mainly blown .303” ,and the odd bit of skinning, very concentrated in a small area.

A witness who saw the crash living in Shepperdine said 

“after the aircraft collided , the two of them were locked together , coming down like sort of like a sycamore seed falling from a tree .

we did wonder if infact they had hit the earth together , or broke apart at the last minute . 

I still have a few bits and bobs , but very little 

I do miss the old groups , SWARG and SAS , probably one of the best most interesting times of my life 

It does look like this was an incident that never made it to the ‘official’ account.. great work. Mr Aston seems to have been doing a bit of ‘freelance’ work, though credit to him for finding and recording these items.

I’ll try to find my copies of the accident cards that I think include that Oxford. Will take a look in the attic tomorrow.

Hi Paul
Looks like you are onto a winner with your research Paul. Matt I cant remember that dig, old age is creeping up on me..
Ian

PS

1940 ? Hurricane I, Gloster, Crashed into hill, Robinswood Hill test pilot

This iis on the Test Pilot Memorial Page as

04/12/1940, Mr J.W. Hathorne, Gloster TP, Hawker Hurricane Mk I N2497

Infact his full and correct name is John William Hathorn

Gloucestershire Echo – Thursday 12 December 1940 Page 1

INQUEST TRIBUTE Verdict On Cheltenham Man ” By his death the country has sustained a loss at a time when such men can ill be spared,” commented the Gloucester City Coroner (Mr. E. H. Clifford), at the inquest held on Wednesday on John William Hathorn, aged 28, of The Cabin, Leckhampton Hall, Shurdington-road, Cheltenham. A verdict of “Accidental death ‘ was recorded, the Coroner expressing sympathy with the relatives.

Thanks All , as you may or may not know

I am making a study of all RAF parachute escapes upto April 30th 1940 – Around 500 Incidents

A long term mystery on mine was a Collision between Pilots P/O James Reginald Bryan “Jim” Meaker and P/O Charles Francis Ambrose around Feb/March 1940

A correspondent of mine has recently (via a House Clearance – so he a can’t ask the original owner) obtained a box of Gloster Gladiator bits which were labelled

“Gladiator. Collision Calowell Farm Near Whiteshill, Stroud 14th of March 1940. Aircraft believed to be from 5 o.t.u. Aston Down” – This came from the Paul Aston Collection

– A written report is as follows (I have transcribed)

AIRCRAFT TYPE/SERIAL: GLADIATOR K…
DATE AND TIME OF INCIDENT: 14.3.40
LOCATION: CALOWELL FARM NR WHITESHILL
CREW: PILOT
NAME:
NATIONALITY:
RANK:
AGE:
ADDRESS:
CASUALTY: UNINJURED
UNIT: 5 OTU
HOME BASE: ASTON DOWN
MISSION: Eye Witness: Three in aerobatic formation, two collided both coming down some 150 yds of each other card missing form AHB

AIRCRAFT TYPE/SERIAL: GLADIATOR K…
DATE AND TIME OF INCIDENT: 14.3.40
LOCATION: CALOWELL FARM NR WHITESHILL
CREW: PILOT
NAME:
NATIONALITY:
RANK:
AGE:
ADDRESS:
CASUALTY: UNINJURED
UNIT: 5 OTU
HOME BASE: ASTON DOWN
MISSION: Three in aerobatic formation, two collided both coming down some 150 yds of each other card missing form AHB
Dug remains of the one from depression 14/10/84

This incident was new to me and I can’t find any reference to it in my research, nor any aircraft losses for Gladiators which match- It does not mean it did not happen though (as we all know)

However, for reference

1) What I do know about the incident to Meaker and Ambrose is an account by Meaker in which it says he was flying in formation when the collision occurred,

“
Chichester Observer – Saturday 06 April 1940
Page 1

CHICHESTER PILOT BALES OUT
PARACHUTE DESCENT
Pilot-Officer J.R.B Meaker
of “The Cottage,” West Dean, home on leave, had an exciting story to tell.
“I was flying along in formation,” he told an Observer reporter, ” when I suddenly found that I was
flying without a tail. The plane behind had bumped into me.
I immediately bailed out.
The parachute I was wearing was not my own and was too large for me, so I had
some trouble in finding the ring. They were anxious moments. When it did open
I found myself descending upside down, but by touching my feet with my head,
I was able to straighten out and land safely.”
Pilot Officer MEAKER was formerly on the staff of the Observer and left to join the R.A.F.
He is none the worse for his experience. “

b) A further Internet Bio on Meaker says he was involved in a “Gladiator” Collision,
c) Meaker and Ambrose were at 12 Group Pool at Aston Down at the same time – So the location is good
d) As I have said before the dates are right

Ambrose joined 12 Group Pool February 1940

For Ambrose I also have

“After converting to ‘Hurricanes’ he was posted to 46 Squadron at Digby on 23rd March.”

– 12 Group Pool would have had a couple of Hurricanes but mainly Gladiators as they were teaching not only too to operate Hurricanes but also fighters in general – They also had Harvard and Blenheims

I had been looking for this incident for years, and I know not to get my hopes up, but this feels ‘right’ – I have always suspected the incident happened in their training together at Aston Down

Note: Ambrose and Meaker were not in Norway together when Collision occurred, whatever the books/Internet says. Meaker prob never went and Ambrose if he did go did not fly Operationally

The dates DO NOT match UP anyway – Incident happened late Feb/Early March 1940

So when I found out about this (unknown to me Collision at 5 OTU at the right time and in Gladiators I got my hopes ups

Mention of this incident is in Wings Over Gloucestershire

21st March 1940.

Gloster Gladiator K7944 No.5 OTU.

Collided with Gladiator K7945 over Salmon Springs, Caliwell (Callowell), during aerobatic practice and crashed.

Gloster Gladiator K7945 No.5 OTU.

See above.

See:
Wings Over Gloucestershire
Rennison,John.
N.P.,:Aspect (Author), 2000 (2nd.rev.ed.).
pp.155-6

I have been in contact with John Rennison and I am hoping he can remember his source

But note different date

Both K7945 and K7944 were at 5 OTU at the time and K7945 wa SOC 28th March 1940, (so that is good). K7944 has a dual history and also turns up at 112 Sqn with a write of date 12 Jan 1940. A colleague of mine suggest this later incident was actually K7977- You can find reference to this all over the web if you google K7944

There is a poorly written-up F.1180 for Gladiator K7977 on 12 January 1940 with 112 Squadron.
It overshot on landing and hit a fence at Helwan, with a ‘?’ after Helwan. Pilot was
Sgt. E. N. Woodward, apparently unhurt. That’s all.
I note however that the three ‘7’s in the serial all look the same but someone might (could)
have read them as ‘4’s ! Cannot have been a bad accident for K7977 as it served in the Middle
East and East Africa until 6 November 1940.

Sgt. E. N. Woodward = Sgt Ernest Norman Woodward #566289

Anyway, hopefully the Form 78 of the aircraft will confirm some details. As stated there is no Form 1180/1181 for this which is why it is particularly hard to track down

The mention of Oxford that flew into houses at Cashes Green is interesting as that aircraft has been suggested to me from a Stroud Local, an her memory of something her father told her bout at the time,. though she did not remember the type – Can I have the serial number and date please ?

Still some way to go on this, especially on confirming date and types – But I am now 95% sure this is my mystery collision bail out.

Paul

I think maybe Paul Aston was in the (Rival) Cotswold Aircraft Restoration Group? Has anyone seen ‘Detectorists’?

Anyway, they did produce this very handy list of Gloucestershire incidents- http://www.aviation-links.co.uk/Glou…0Accidents.pdf

1940 extract as follows (My Blenheim was July 1940 – still, not bad for 35 years!). The Hurricane I recalled correctly – L1977:

1940 ? Hurricane I, Gloster, Crashed into hill, Robinswood Hill
10.01.40 K8332 Audax I, 3 FTS, Crashed on forced landing, 7m W of Tewkesbury
12.01.40 K5043 Hart Trainer, 3 FTS, Undercarriage collapsed on landing, South Cerney
26.01.40 P5862 Harvard I, 12 Grp Pool, Spun in, Aston Down
03.03.40 P1817 Oxford I, 3 FTS, Crashed, N of Cirencester
04.03.40 K8334 Audax I, 3 FTS, Crashed on landing, South Cerney
08.03.40 K5785 Hart Trainer, 3 FTS, Undercarriage collapsed on landing, South Cerney
08.03.40 L4470 Beaufort I, 20 MU, Force landed after engine cut, near Aston Down
08.03.40 L9700 Oxford I, 3 FTS, Stalled on overshoot, South Cerney
08.03.40 N5294 Anson I, 9 FTS, Lost power & crashed, 2.5m S of Nailsworth
08.03.40 P1823 Oxford I, 3 FTS, Crashed on approach, South Cerney
12.03.40 N9824 Anson I, 61 Sqn, Hit tree while low flying, Lechlade
29.03.40 N5588 Gladiator II, 263 Sqn, Collision with Gladiator N5960, Alveston
29.03.40 N5960 Gladiator II, 263 Sqn, Collision with Gladiator N5588, Alveston
10.04.40 K5156 Audax I, 3 FTS, Overturned while taxying downwind, South Cerney
11.04.40 K5797 Hart Trainer, 3 FTS, Undercarriage collapsed on landing, South Cerney
15.04.40 K6837 Hind, 1 PFU, Crashed on landing, Aston Down
17.04.40 K7308 Audax I, 9 FTS, Crashed on landing, Babdown Farm
18.04.40 L4468 ? Beaufort I, Bristol, Crashed, Cribbs Causeway, Filton
21.04.40 K6494 Hart Trainer, 3 FTS, Overturned on landing, South Cerney
22.04.40 K6633 Hind, 1 FTS, Hit tree on forced landing, 2m N of Pucklechurch
26.04.40 L4494 Beaufort I, 5 MU, Bellylanded after engine cut, Little Rissington
27.04.40 K5046 Hart Trainer, 3 FTS, Overshot and hit fence, South Cerney
14.05.40 K6549 Hart Trainer, 9 FTS, Overturned on landing, Leighterton
16.05.40 P9514 Spitfire I, 5 OTU, , Aston Down
24.05.40 K4892 Hart Trainer, 3 FTS, Collided with Oxford P1816 on ground, South Cerney
25.05.40 K7439 Audax I, 3 FTS, Crashed on landing, South Cerney
01.06.40 L6643 Blenheim I, 236 Sqn, Bellylanded after engine cut, Filton
03.06.40 K9814 Spitfire I, 5 OTU, Crashed on landing, Aston Down
07.06.40 K6510 Hart Trainer, 3 FTS, Damaged on landing, South Cerney
08.06.40 L4537 Oxford I, 3 FTS, Stalled on approach, South Cerney
08.06.40 P5870 Harvard I, 5 OTU, Crashed, Aston Down
19.06.40 L1471 Blenheim I, 5 OTU, Hit sandbank on Severn off Lydney harbour while low flying, Woolaston
01.07.40 R6640 Spitfire I, 5 OTU, , Kemble
03.07.40 K7112 Blenheim I, 5 OTU, Crashed on take-off, Aston Down
15.07.40 L6597 Blenheim I, 5 OTU, Hit mudbank & crashed while low flying, near Sharpness
19.07.40 ? Blenheim, , Crashed in Severn, Lydney Sand
19.07.40 L6023 Hereford I, 5 MU, Hit tree on take-off, Kemble
20.07.40 R6320 Oxford I, 3 FTS, Crashed on landing, Bibury
22.07.40 K3712 Audax I, 9 FTS, Overturned in forced landing, Long Newnton
22.07.40 L6652 Blenheim I, 5 OTU, Bellylanded after engine cut, Tetbury
23.07.40 L1105 Blenheim I, 5 OTU, Stalled on approach, Frampton Mansell
25.07.40 ? Master, 5 FTS, Collision with Ju 88 on approach, South Cerney
25.07.40 9K+GN Ju 88A, 5/KG 51, Shot down by Hurricane / coll with Master, Lower Weir Farm, Oakridge Lynch
25.07.40 P3271 Hurricane I, 4 FPP, Spun in after collision with Ju 88, near Aston Down
30.07.40 P5901 Harvard I, 6 FTS, Struck trees whilst low flying, near Turkdean
01.08.40 L1308 Blenheim I, 5 OTU, Stalled on approach, Aston Down
01.08.40 N6323 Oxford I, 15 FTS, Undershot on approach, Windrush
01.08.40 P1266 Hampden I, 16 OTU, Undercarriage collapsed on landing, Babdown Farm
03.08.40 P1821 Oxford I, 3 FTS, Collision with Oxford P1955, near South Cerney
05.08.40 P5793 Harvard I, 15 SFTS, Undershot on landing, Bibury
06.08.40 P1869 Oxford I, 15 SFTS, Dived into the ground after take-off, near Windrush
06.08.40 R6332 Oxford I, 3 FTS, Crashed after take-off, Bibury
07.08.40 K6541 Hart Trainer, 9 FTS, Crashed on approach, Babdown Farm
10.08.40 L1063 Spitfire I, 5 OTU, Collision with Blenheim L6799, Aston Down
10.08.40 L6799 Blenheim I, 5 OTU, Collision with Spitfire L1063, Aston Down
12.08.40 N4803 Oxford II, 3 FTS, Broke up in flight, Hankerton
13.08.40 R6880 Spitfire I, 4 FPP, Hit balloon cable & crashed, Brockworth
17.08.40 L7907 Anson I, 6 FTS, Hit trees while low flying, Lodge Park, Eastington
18.08.40 1408 / 1G+?T He 111P, 5/KG 27, Collision with Anson L9164, Blackpits Farm, near Aldsworth
18.08.40 L9164 Anson I, 6 FTS, Collision with He 111 WNr 1408, Blackpits Farm, near Aldsworth
19.08.40 ? Spitfire, 92 Sqn, Destroyed on ground by Ju 88, Bibury
19.08.40 P5788 Harvard I, 6 SFTS, Crashed, Northleach Lane field, Hazleton
19.08.40 T7032 Tiger Moth II, 2 EFTS, Hit telephone wires & crashed, Tewkesbury
25.08.40 L6733 Blenheim I, 5 OTU, Flew into trees in cloud, Tidenham Chase
26.08.40 N2606 Hurricane I, 5 OTU, Spun in, South Cerney
29.08.40 K8754 Anson I, 11 OTU, Undershot & hit haystack at night, Windrush
29.08.40 L5283 Battle I, 12 OTU, Engine cut on approach & hit wall, Aston Down
04.09.40 T5627 Tiger Moth II, 2 EFTS, Engine cut; spun into ground, Whitehall Cheltenham
09.09.40 P5885 Harvard I, 15 FTS, Spun in, near Brockworth
12.09.40 K7160 Blenheim I, 5 OTU, Crashed, Aston Down
19.09.40 P5885 Harvard I, 14 SFTS, Spun in, near Brockworth
20.09.40 N7987 Master I, 5 OTU, Broke up in flight, Cherrington
20.09.40 N9821 Anson I, 2 SFTS, Collision with Oxford P9039, 3m S of Little Rissington
20.09.40 P9039 Oxford I, 2 SFTS, Collision with Anson N9821, 3m S of Little Rissington
23.09.40 L8797 Blenheim IV, 17 OTU, Crashlanded after engine cut, Quedgeley
24.09.40 N1192 Oxford I, 3 FTS, Hit HT wires & crashed, Frampton-on-Severn
25.09.40 L1184 Blenheim I, 104 Sqn, Believed destroyed in air raid, Filton
25.09.40 L1189 Blenheim I, 104 Sqn, Believed destroyed in air raid, Filton
25.09.40 L1193 Blenheim I, 104 Sqn, Believed destroyed in air raid, Filton
25.09.40 L4476 Beaufort I, Bristol, Destroyed in air raid, Filton
25.09.40 L4507 Beaufort I, 42 Sqn, Destroyed in air raid, Filton
25.09.40 L9870 Beaufort I, Bristol, Destroyed in air raid, Filton
25.09.40 L9880 Beaufort I, 22 Sqn, Destroyed in air raid, Filton
25.09.40 N1157 Beaufort I, Bristol, Destroyed in air raid, Filton
27.09.40 2162 / U8+FK Bf 110, ZG 26, Shot down by Hurricane, Fishponds, Bristol
01.10.40 L1946 Hurricane I, 55 OTU, Dived into ground, near Beachley
03.10.40 L1106 Blenheim I, 5 OTU, Undershot & hit wall, Aston Down
05.10.40 G-AFDL DH.91 Albatross, Imperial Airways, Crashed, Pucklechurch
08.10.40 P1271 Hampden I, 16 OTU, Broke up in flight, Home Farm, Highnam
09.10.40 L1977 Hurricane I, 55 OTU, Spun in, near Stroud
11.10.40 K7447 Audax I, 9 FTS, Crashed on night landing, Babdown Farm
11.10.40 K9730 Hector I, 20 MU, Crashed on forced landing, Bishops Cleeve
13.10.40 N1183 Beaufort I, Bristol, Destroyed in air raid before delivery, Filton
20.10.40 P9039 Oxford I, 2 FTS, Collided with Avro Anson N9821, near Little Rissington
23.10.40 K7412 Audax I, 9 FTS, Crashed on night landing, Babdown Farm
23.10.40 L1106 Blenheim I, 5 OTU, Crashed, Aston Down
23.10.40 P6274 Proctor I, 8 MU, Flew into ground in poor visibility, Hillcot Wood, Andoversford
28.10.40 K6537 Hart Trainer, 9 FTS, Crashed, Tiltups End, 1m S of Nailsworth
29.10.40 N5285 Anson I, 6 FTS, Collided with Avro Anson N9737 of No.11 AONS, 10m N of Stow on the Wold
01.11.40 K7452 Audax I, 9 FTS, Crashed on approach, Babdown Farm
13.11.40 N6336 Oxford I, 3 FTS, Hit wall on forced landing, North Cerney
16.11.40 L4893 Blenheim I, A&AEE, Stalled in circuit, Filton 17.11.40 K6496 Hart Trainer, 9 FTS, Crashed on approach, Babdown Farm
18.11.40 P1078 Oxford I, 3 FTS, Crashed into hill, Woodchester
24.11.40 451 / 4U+HL Ju 88A-5, 3(F)123, Shot down by Hurricanes, Coates
28.11.40 N6330 Oxford I, 3 FTS, Crashed on night approach, Bibury
29.11.40 K6438 Hart Trainer, 9 FTS, Stalled on take-off, Babdown Farm
30.11.40 K6447 Hart Trainer, 9 FTS, Damaged on landing, Babdown Farm
03.12.40 K5175 Audax I, 9 FTS, Hit wall in forced landing, 3m E of Painswick
05.12.40 L2124 Hurricane I, 55 OTU, Tipped up on landing, Moreton-in-Marsh
13.12.40 R5064 Tiger Moth II, 2 EFTS, Flew into hill in cloud, Birdlip
17.12.40 L1902 Hurricane I, 55 OTU, Flew into ground in poor visibility, Andoversford
23.12.40 N6277 Oxford I, 2 FTS, Hit tree & crashed at night, Southrop
28.12.40 L1700 Hurricane I, 55 OTU, Dived into ground, Saul

Hmm.. I have been casting my mind back. There were more in Stroud – an Oxford that flew into houses at Cashes Green and – and this is the only possible candidate, I DO remember fieldwalking with a detector somewhere up behind Stroud, with Allan White and Ian, finding very small fragments of what I had always recalled as a Hurricane in a ploughed field. Sorry my memory failed me before about that one, still, definitely no Gladiators that I recall.

Ian, do you remember that one? We didn’t expect to find anything, and a few tiny fragments were something of a result? I think my mate Adrian was there too, if that helps?

Ian and Beermat thanks for your recollections of the time of big hair and white suits

it helps immensely and yes Paul Aston is the name I wanted to check

I will fill you in about this tomorrow here but I know it was more than a forced landing !

BTW has anyone got this

https://www.afterthebattle.com/store/index.php?id_product=276&controller=product

kind regards

Paul McMillan

Hi Paul
The guys name is Paul Aston he did a few digs around the Stroud area dont know if he is still around.
Ian

I was a keen 14 year old living near Stroud in 1984, and was out every weekend on my bike researching air crashes in the Stroud area for the Severnside Aviation Society, which I was in with Ian at the time. I had not heard of any Gladiator collision in 1940 in the area. I’d certainly know if one was dug at Callowell in ’84 – I could practically see it from my house, and I’d have made sure I’d got to the dig.

The incident as reported sounds like a forced landing brought about after contact, hence no accident card. The parts are possibly from another aircraft? Have you a positive ID on them as Gladiator?

There is a famous “Wellington in a pond” up there, though more Whiteshill way. That one was from a bomber OTU, lost on its way back from leafleting somewhere.

Collision wise, there was one later over Nether Lypiatt between a Mustang I and 52 OTU Spitfire (I think) and an incident between a 5 OTU Hurricane and Ju88 near Chalford. The only other Stroud incident in 1940 that I am aware of was a Blenheim at Frampton Mansell from June 1940 – which I found fragments from in the summer of 84.

The more I think about it, the more this sounds like two stories have become conflated.

Hi Ian,

A small update to the incident on 29 Mar 1940 you refer to; this involved two 263 Sqn aircraft from Filton, piloted by 33466 P/O Darrell Edward David Milson in N5690 and 33483 P/O Patrick John Muriel Nettleton in N5588.

They were part of a flight of four a/c with 565278 Sgt. Ernest Frederick William Russell and P/O J.W. McKenzie in N5679. Duty was carrying out practice attacks, P/O McKenzie flying as the ‘target’ aircraft. During practice of a standard ‘No. 2 Attack’ it seems that Nettleton inadvertantly closed on Milsom during the approach, and their aircraft collided as Milsom broke away. The two aircraft crashed at Alverston (Grid P.1010) at 1217, ‘wtihin 300 yards of each other’ and burst into flames.

AIR 81/1954 covers the above.

Regards,

Jeff

Ian thanks for your reply

The collision is reported thus

21st March 1940. ALOS seen 14th March 1940 reported

Gloster Gladiator “K7944” No.5 OTU. – Some confusion on this as the same serial was with 112 Sqn in Middle East at time… Though personally I think the middle east one is wrong

Collided with Gladiator K7945 over Salmon Springs, Caliwell (Callowell), during aerobatic practice and crashed.

Gloster Gladiator K7945 No.5 OTU.

See above.

See:
Wings Over Gloucestershire
Rennison,John.
N.P.,:Aspect (Author), 2000 (2nd.rev.ed.).
pp.155-6

No accident Cards seem to exist!

Someone called Ashton may have been involved in the ‘dig’ does this ring any bells ? – But may just be surface recovery…

I think I know the names of pilots involved (both survived) but still some work need on this

Kind Regards

Hi Paul
You maybe referring to a crash that happened on the 29/3/40 between Gladiator N5588 P/O D.Milsom and Gladiator N5960 P/O P. Nettleton. Both aircraft crashed between Alveston and Thornbury near Bristol. A mate and myself did the one hand dig on the site back in the 80’s. From memory not much was found some small metal fittings and a small part of the rear engine casing. We only found the one aircraft. Be interesting to see what parts you have got
Ian