British Reggiane Re.2000

(Graham, I don’t think our philosophies on “what-iffing” are that dissimilar, just the direction of thought process to reach a similar result.)

If you draw the P-35 to P-47 analogy, then the family tree is P-35, AP-7A (racer), XP-41 are essentially the same; small step change to P-43; bigger jump to P-47. With the Reggianes, it’s Re2000, Re2001, Re2002 similar airframe, different engines; big step in development to Re2005. Bearing in mind that the Re2006 (DB603 with 1800hp at take-off) development (concept only) was based on an up-engined Re2005, a Griffon-engine isn’t totally out of question from power loading, though perhaps the physical size of Griffon compared to the smaller Diamler-Benz may have required more design effort.

What I’m curious about, is whether Reggiane or other Caproni-subsidiaries could have managed a production order of 300 Re2000s in a reasonable timeframe; or would license production in the UK have been an eventual requirement? I don’t think Reggiane would have had access to British or US military engines (apart from civil commercial varieties), so “what-if” development would have required a British or US design group input. (Even assuming Italy kept out of WW2 in 1940-41.)

The contract was divided into three tranches:

1. 300 Ca.313 and 100 Ca.311;
2. 300 Re.2000;
3. 50 engines for ships made by Isotta Fraschini and 1000 anti-aircraft machine guns;

After the German authorization from the Reichsluftfahrtministerium to sell the material to Great Britain two British pilots test the Re.2000, the Ca.311 and the Ca.313 in flight. At the end the representative of the Air Ministry is very satisfied of the Reggiane plane and announces that the RAF order could reach even the number of 1000. The signing of the contract was scheduled for April 6th at the British Embassy in Rome but in the night the Germans change their minds and deny the sale authorization, perhaps the same Hitler in person calls Mussolini, then Mussolini calls Count Caproni and requires him to cancel the contract.

Oh, I deny that, and have some evidence on my shelves (or in my boxes, to be more correct). I do however admit disliking the unthinking “plop anything in anything ignoring realistic limitations” approach, and prefer exploring the actually possible edge of What-If. There’s a lot of difference between the 2000/2001/2002 and the 2005, yet none of these engines approach the power of a Griffon nor the size of an R2600. Only the DB605 offered significantly more power. Designs can be developed (ok, the more successful ones can) beyond the original dreams of their designers, but not without changes both internally and externally. At one extreme is the Bf109A to Bv155, but there really was little that could be done to the Hurricane. (OK, I do have a bubble-hood variant with clipped wings to go fighting Oscars, but both changes would have been a doddle to introduce. If wanted. I suppose that it could have had a Hercules.)

What could be done with the Re1000? Well, it was the Seversky P-35 (yes it was, at the core), and look at the P-47H or J. But could Reggiane actually have coped?

If the RAF had adopted the Re2000 into service, it does lead to interesting thought on possible derivatives.

(Sorry Graham, I know you’re not a big fan of what-if thinking.)

In the same way that the Re2000 was re-engined with the DB601 into the Re2001; an 1,175-hp radial into the Re2002; and ultimately (as an operational airframe) with the DB605 into the Re2005; you could consider a range of Merlin, Allison, Griffin in-line engined versions or radial-engined versions powered by the like of Wright GR-2600s, etc.

Not just the Reggiane, but also the Caproni 311 light transport. Whether there was any real expectation of eventual success is perhaps unknown (if guessable) but, as said above, anything that might help keep Italy out of the war was worth considering. We needed more aircraft, they had spare production capacity, and Italy had been an ally in the Great War. If the discussions failed then nothing was lost, but there were both small and large gains to be made.

It’s worth adding that France had even more to lose but successfully agreed a deal for Nardi FN305 trainers, some of which had been delivered before it came to shooting between them.

Must admit this proposed purchase is a new one on me. Did the Air Ministry really actually consider buying Re. 2000s when a European war against the Fascist powers was clearly highly likely, if not iminent? Very surprised such an option was even considered!

Blame Wikipedia for that one, but I didn’t have any other sources for the Breda.

Thanks guys, I think it would be a mistery.

Graham, sorry you are right concerning the Fiat Cr.42 it had a Fiat engine, but concerning the Norwegian Breda Ba.28 you are wrong. I looked in my papers it had a Armstrong-Siddeley Cheetah.

There is not a lot of published information about this. Info in the National Archives seems to be mainly to do with purchase and in Foreign Office files (It was early in the War in Dec 1939 rather than pre-War). This link has some information, especially about the political nature of the proposed buy (in terms of keeping Italy out the War)

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=28572

I always envisaged the Re2000s would have been shipped to Mid East or Far East if they had been delivered. If you wnat to play what-if regarding engines, an American engine might be a possibility.

They did indeed!
http://www.avrosys.nu/aircraft/Jakt/110j11/110J11.htm

Swedish CR42s retained the Fiat engine of the original. Norwegian Breda 28s had Gnome Rhone 7K.

The Reggianes were needed in a hurry, and changing the engine would have meant delays. It’s not clear which engine could have been chosen: the Pegasus had a larger diameter, the Taurus was unready, and the Hercules – the only one with sufficient power, really – was some way away. Plus the Air Ministry already required as many of all these engines as could be provided. I suspect that the Re.2000 with a Hercules and additional armament would have been a capable low-level fighter, but not one available in 1940. By then the RAF were really looking for higher-altitude work anyway.

Concerning the engine, the Swedish used the Fiat Cr.42 with British engine, Norway used the Breda Ba.28 also with a British engine, the Chinese ordered the Breda Ba.65 with Wright Cyclone. The last one should be build in Chine, but because the situation over there never build. The Hungarian build the Re.2000 with a Gn.R version.
So why not ordered with a British engine?

You mention the US fighters, but that was during the war, but before the war all the aeroplanes used the .303 it would be strange if the accept for only these 300 an other caliber.
Concerning extra guns, maybe the planned these just like later on the Re.2001, in the wings???

British Vickers 0.5-in machine guns were manufactured with rimmed, semi-rimmed and caseless ammunition (see this link: http://www.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=412).
This photo shows a superficial similarity between Vickers and Breda-Safat ammunition: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/38/9e/43/389e43963b424de7b1ba154161e8c8f7.jpg

So possibly ammunition supply wasn’t much of an issue for Breda-Safat weapons, unlike the much different US 50-cal.

The British didn’t normally change the engine on imported types, so I’d expect the Piaggio to be acceptable. Had it proven unreliable in service then something else might have been considered, but more likely it would simply have been given a less important role. Given the available power and armament, I suspect that this would have been the case anyway.

The initial requirement for the Spitfire and Hurricane called for four Brownings, but this was increased to eight at a very early stage.

As the US fighters delivered with 0.5 Brownings retained this armament, it seems likely that the Re.2000 would have retained the Breda Safat guns as long as spares and ammunition supply was maintained. As far as I know there were no plans to add extra guns, although I would agree that it would be desirable. This would be a matter of debate with Reggiane, or possibly whichever British company was chosen to be a partner (as Blackburn was for many US aircraft).