B17f 42-5852 SO-T The Natural

A bead blast might show up numbers

that’s interesting guys, of course the picture is not that clear, but what it does prove is that there were several ‘panels’ of armour around this position.

37mm fired from an aircraft ? FW 190 ?

thanks for the added information, as said above, i’m sure this is original.

Jules

With the steel plate in that location it would seem to support the theory that the 37mm was fired from an aircraft.

http://olive-drab.com/images/id_bombers_b17_375.jpg
have a look above his head

Hello Marc

Thank you for your fantastic input. i will PM you shortly.

Jules

Hi Jules,

I saw your post over a week ago, but have been waiting in the moderation queue for account activation on this chatboard to comment. My name is Marc Poole, and my relative Johnny Butler was the original pilot of “The Natural.” When I was in graduate school at Mississippi State University (1998-2001), I based my thesis on researching and documenting his WWII experience. Johnny was an original member of the 384th Bomb Group, and he and his crew (Crew #19) were originally assigned B-17F 42-5852 in the states before the unit headed to England in the spring of 1943. The crew LOVED their plane. Joe Baggs, the navigator, gave it the name because of the tail number being a natural poker hand. According to the flight engineer Joe Turlington, there was a pair of dice painted on the nose. He even mentioned they painted the wheel covers red and “whitewalled” the tires…fantastic. There is one photo of the starboard side of the plane showing the name (it appears to be late September-early October) , and crew photos in front of the nose shows some hard to distinguish markings, but you can make out the name. The crew regularly flew The Natural on the group’s earliest missions in the summer of 1943 without injury, and it always got them home. They flew as the group’s lead ship on several missions as well. On the Sept. 6, 1943 mission to Stuttgart, when Wing Leader Bob Travis had the bombers circle the target 3 times causing many B-17’s to ultimately run out of fuel and crash, The Natural made it back to England but landed at RAF Hornchurch to refuel before finally making it back to Grafton Underwood. After that mission, it was stood down to have H2S installed, and also flew as a camera ship, which it did on the Oct. 14 mission to Schweinfurt. While it was down for modifications in September, Crew 19 flew a sister ship, 42-5849 “Hell’s Belles II” on the September 16, 1943 raid to Nantes, France, and were shot down by 109’s from JG 2. Three crewmen were killed, 5 were taken POW, Joe Turlington evaded capture and made it to Spain, and Johnny made it to Switzerland.

Edmund Goulder flew The Natural on the Oct. 14 Schweinfurt mission successfully, but was met with fog over England upon his return. He and the crew baled out, and from what I was told, The Natural simply glided down to a pretty nice belly landing. Ed Goulder is still around, and is actually a member on the 384th BG facebook page. Back when I started my research in 1999, I had posted an inquiry on a website in England called the Bicester-Index…it generated several responses, and ultimately led to a radio interview with a British radio station, that got me a few other leads, as I was also searching for The Natural’s crash site. I can’t recall all the details as it has been 17 years, but I remember a “Mr. Tew” as being maybe the cottage owner where it crashed, and a story of a small boy crawling into the wreckage to put out fires to keep the ammo from cooking off…I may be wrong.

I ended up creating the website for the group (www.384thbombgroup.com) out of my initial research back in 2000, although I turned over the keys to it to a great team of researchers after several years due to family obligations and commitments. I also produced a 35-minute documentary about Crew 19 as part of my graduate thesis. I’d be willing to share more with you, if you would do the same. The Natural has been the cornerstone of my research, so I am always looking for more.

Cheers,
Marc Poole

The 384th Bombardment Group web page is at this link.

http://www.384thbombgroup.com/

42-5852 page

http://384thbombgroup.com/_content/_pages/One384thAircraft.php?AircraftKey=42-5852

If this is armor plate how would the flak get a near right angle impact assuming the armor was affixed to a vertical surface such as seat?
Do we know what altitude the bomber was shot up? 37mm effective range was 4300 meters. So the bomber would have been quite low at 12’000 feet

If this is scaffolding see picture of modern day feet below.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=scaffolding&client=firefox-b&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiCseL14bHNAhUBL8AKHXMSABYQ_AUICCgB&biw=1440&bih=767#imgrc=ER47HaFOuQQzSM%3A

Could the plate have been a fixture on the B17, such as a pintle mounting or seat fixing?

Tony, it certainly seems too go to be true, i have always thought that, i have not measured it but by eye it looks pretty symmetrical, however, the facts are that it weighs far more than normal steel plate ( ive not tried to drill it) but the hole, that is very nearly 37mm has been put through at some force to splinter out the other side, try making that type of impact in mild steel plate………………..
its certainly not a weld joint………..

am i right in thinking that the German AA rounds were 37mm ?

Jules

I must admit I did not want to poo poo this item…..but I dont recognise it from B17. The big flak hole looks conveniently symmetrically placed (not every day you get to use those words in one sentence!). My first thought was an oldscaffolding plate with the pole base broken off at the weld. Hope im wrong and I will check my books and phots

Definitely not seat armour, and it does not look familiar to any of the other armour on board, especially with a big hole in the middle

Waist Gunner Position ? anyone any shots of this Armour in place then ? probably not many surviving B17’s with all their Armour in these days ?

thanks so far…………..

Jules

Could well be, but it appears curved to fit behind the seat. Further info about the crash. 3 a/c from 384th BG were abandoned over England due to severe battle damage. One crashed at Wakerley, one at Blaydon and one at Chetwolde. I’m not sure if there is a 384th BG website, but if there is, it may have more info.

Is that not from above the wait gunner position?

42-5852 arrived at Grafton Underwood as part of the fist 9 a/c to be in the 384th BG on 26th May 1943. According to “Fortresses of the Big Triangle First” By Cliff T Bishop,1986, it crashed on 14th October 43 and the remains were recovered on 15th October 43. The armour plate looks as if it came from behind either the pilots or co-pilots seat.