ID/Research help – Australian Tiger Moth, unknown history

Hello,

Sorry about that, I saw a reference somewhere to VH-ZUP! By the way, if you ever come to Australia, you MUST come to Luskintyre! You’ll be most welcome.

John

No worries! I’ve got her engine at least 🙂

I will definitely come by when I’m there. I first heard about it while I was checking out the dH.82c at a museum just north of the border on the day I signed the contract for A17-370. I happened to run into an Australian there who told me all about it, very coincidental!

Hello,

Sorry about that, I saw a reference somewhere to VH-ZUP! By the way, if you ever come to Australia, you MUST come to Luskintyre! You’ll be most welcome.

John

Hello,

I’m one of the owners of Luskintyre airfield, Lochinvar, NSW, Australia, and flew your Tiger many times when it was VH-ZUP. It was owned by a friend,and (then) fellow owner of Luskintyre, Brian Parkinson, he bought it from Owen Zupp. It was a lovely Tiger to fly. Many of the aircraft restored at Luskintyre were basically a collection of parts that “assumed an identity”, around the maker’s plate. And, as I’m sure you’re aware, engines lost contact with their original airframes often very early on. Without wishing to enter into any conflict with my fellow historic aviation enthusiasts, UK based, I seem to remember hearing something about Australian-built Gipsy Majors being preferred to the English-built versions. Something about the way the crankcase was joined together, but it’s a bit hazy. Congrats on acquiring a lovely aeroplane. Is it still red and silver?

John

Hi John, my Tiger was never civil-registered in Australia, it is A17-370 and its original Australian engine (number 193), after being declared U/S for most of a year, was replaced with a British-built engine (number 82077) that came out of VH-ZUP (c/n 82358) sometime during their joint RAAF service. A17-370 was put into storage after No. 1 EFTS was closed, and remained there until being shipped to India in 1949. In 1955 it resurfaced as VT-CUO flying for the Air Technical Training Institute where it finally retired in 1973. It has been sitting ever since, and the restoration will be a long-term project.

I’ve heard a lot about Luskintyre lately! I’ve come to realize that it would be folly for me to restore an RAAF Tiger Moth without ever having traveled to Australia… so perhaps some day in a year or two I will drop in!

Hello,

I’m one of the owners of Luskintyre airfield, Lochinvar, NSW, Australia, and flew your Tiger many times when it was VH-ZUP. It was owned by a friend,and (then) fellow owner of Luskintyre, Brian Parkinson, he bought it from Owen Zupp. It was a lovely Tiger to fly. Many of the aircraft restored at Luskintyre were basically a collection of parts that “assumed an identity”, around the maker’s plate. And, as I’m sure you’re aware, engines lost contact with their original airframes often very early on. Without wishing to enter into any conflict with my fellow historic aviation enthusiasts, UK based, I seem to remember hearing something about Australian-built Gipsy Majors being preferred to the English-built versions. Something about the way the crankcase was joined together, but it’s a bit hazy. Congrats on acquiring a lovely aeroplane. Is it still red and silver?

John

Ok, an update!

I’ve had no luck getting hold of the owner of A17-695 nor the present or past owner of N9257. Will keep trying.

Last night (my time) I received really excellent photos of A17-370’s E88 card! Many thanks, I’ve now been able to finish my transcription with a high degree of confidence 🙂

In the meantime I’ve been transcribing the old dH.82a Parts List into Excel so that I can inventory, track, and document everything as the restoration proceeds. It’s time-consuming but will be worth it.

With all that said… I decided to take stock on what I have and what I’d like to have. This is where I’m at, if you see anything on the Wish List you may be able to help with, please drop me a line!

Currently Have

Historical Material:
A17-370 E88 card (photo, excellent quality!) – Thanks Buz!
1 EFTS ORB February 1944 (photo, excellent quality!) – Thanks Gordon!
A17-695 disposal order (low res) – Thanks Gordon!
A17-695 E88 card (low res) – Thanks Gordon!
A17 series RAAF crash reports summary covering A17-691 to A17-708 – Thanks Gordon!
Photo of Tiger Moths at Parafield including A17-358 (excellent quality!) – Thanks Mike!
Accident Summaries from India, 1960-1994 (found)

Technical Material:
Australian dH.82a Operation, Maintenance and Rigging Manual
Australian dH.82a Pilots Notes (1944)
British dH.82a Maintenance and Repair Manual (1947)
British dH.82a Schedule of Spare Parts (1943)
Canadian dH.82c Operation and Maintenance Manual
Canadian dH.82c Parts List
dH.82a Restoration Manual (documentation of a restoration from 1976)
Australian Gipsy Major Care and Maintenance Manual
Gipsy Major I and 10 Spare Parts List (1958)
Gipsy Major 1, HC and 7 Operation, Maintenance and Overhaul Manual (1958)
RAAF Schedule of Aircraft Instruments (1946) – Thanks Ross!

Wish List

Historical Material:
Incident/Accident/Crash/Trial/Investigation Report(s) from February 28, 1944 crash/collision at Parafield (if any such exists)
1 EFTS ORB from December 1942
A17-695 E88 card (photo or good scan)
A17-376 E88 card (can be poor scan, needed to rule it out of 1944 incident)
A17-374 E88 card (can be poor scan, needed to rule it out of 1944 incident)
A17-372 E88 card (can be poor scan, needed to rule it out of 1944 incident)
A17-377 E88 card (can be poor scan, needed to rule it out of 1944 incident)
A17-371 E88 card (can be poor scan, needed to rule it out of 1944 incident)
1 EFTS ORB Complete from May 1941 to November 1946
Any and all photos of Tiger Moths in production in Australia from January 1941 to May 1941
Any and all photos of Tiger Moths at Parafield from May 1941 to June 1944
Any and all photos of Tiger Moths at Tamworth from June 1944 to October 1946
Any and all photos of Victorian & Interstate Airways facility during WWII
Any records of Victorian & Interstate Airways during WWII
T5459 E88 card (photo or good scan)
N9257 E88 card (photo or good scan)
Any records or photos of Tiger Moths in storage owned by the Associated Aero Clubs from October 1946 to December 1949
Any records or photos of Tiger Moths shipped to India during 1949-1950
Any records or photos of Tiger Moths operated by India from 1950-1955
Any records or photos of Tiger Moths owned and operated by the Air Technical Training Institute at Dum Dum airport (now Netaji Subhas Chandra Bose Int’l Airport), Calcutta (now Kolkata), from 1955 to 2001
Any records or photos of the fate of N9257 VT-CUP in India

Technical Material:
Australian-specific Schedule of Spare Parts for Tiger Moths
Any Australian-specific Parts Drawings
All de Havilland Tiger Moth drawings

Liz:

PM sent with Conrad’s email address….

Thanks!!

Liz:

PM sent with Conrad’s email address….

Again using The DH82ATiger Moth in Australia by Julian Forsyth, it lists as follows,
No 2 Aircraft Depot Richmond NSW
No 1 EFTS Parafield SA
No 3 EFTS Essendon VIC
No 9 EFTS Cunderdin WA
No 11 EFTS Benella VIC
No 86 OBU Cunderdin WA (Operational Base Unit) Hope this helps till you get the card

Kind Regards Mike

Thanks, I wonder what the dates of that 1 EFTS assignment was. Probably early, I presume. Means the engine could have been “left behind” in stores with that unit and then installed in my Tiger any time later. I was curious if the dates and locations of this guy would give some clue as to when my engine was switched out, whether it had to do with that taxi incident or was just normal maintenance/overhaul. Hmm.

Again using The DH82ATiger Moth in Australia by Julian Forsyth, it lists as follows,
No 2 Aircraft Depot Richmond NSW
No 1 EFTS Parafield SA
No 3 EFTS Essendon VIC
No 9 EFTS Cunderdin WA
No 11 EFTS Benella VIC
No 86 OBU Cunderdin WA (Operational Base Unit) Hope this helps till you get the card

Kind Regards Mike

Does anyone have an Aircraft History Card for N9257 c/n 82358 while it was in the RAAF?

You should drop a line to Owen Zupp as well, he’s an aviation author with website etc.

There is a contact postal address on the CASA register for Conrad Heim.
https://www.casa.gov.au/

Ian found the engine! I’ve been puzzling how there came to be a British engine in my Aussie Tiger Moth, and here’s the answer:

N9257 c/n 82358 (Gipsy Major #82077) Toc 27 MU 22.9.39. To 36 MU 11.12.39. To Australia 27.12.39.

So it came over in a British-built Tiger Moth, and here’s the rest of its history:
VH‑AKN c/n 82358 ex N9257 (RAAF) (Sold FJ Goodwin, Darlington, WA 5.11.47) Regd 27.3.51 to Raymond G Jaeschke, Wubin, WA. Regd 14.4.55 to Scientific Spraying Service, Perth. Crashed into tree 1 ml NE of Midland Junction, WA 13.6.55. Regn cld 30.6.55. Regd VH-ZUP 3.4.98 to Owen P Zupp, Luskintyre. Rebuilt by Ray Windred, Luskintyre & reflown 12.6.01. Regd 18.10.03 to Clayton Computer Co Pty Ltd, Salamander Bay, NSW. Sold 27.11.09 & regd 11.12.09 to Conrad Heim, Ashgrove, Qld (based Kilcoy Airfield, nr Brisbane).

It’s still flying! (obviously with a different engine, heh)

Does anyone here know Conrad Heim? I’d love to get in touch and let him know that his Tiger’s original engine is still around, I’m sure he’d get a kick out of that 😀

Thanks Ian!

Hi Liz,
I’ve sent you P.M. with my E-mail address if you like.
Keep a list of parts coming, If I don’t have them I can help track them down.

Andy

Thanks so much! Wilco 😀

Hi Liz,
I’ve sent you P.M. with my E-mail address if you like.
Keep a list of parts coming, If I don’t have them I can help track them down.

Andy

Does anyone know what the C and E statuses were

As aircraft were removed from the flight line due to accidents or servicing, the flight line code was switched. Ie- there would always be Trainers A,B,C,D,E on the flightline, but different aircraft might be used to make up the complement. I have seen this on other status cards for RAAF aircraft used at Flying Schools, where one aircraft might be A, then removed for an engine change, then later E. This code would be prominent on the fuselage.

Ok… here’s a new twist. On the back of the front instrument panel is chalked T5459. This was a British-built Tiger Moth that served with the RAAF and then went to India as VT-CUP (I would assume around the same time as A17-370 which was VT-CUO). Now, aircraft swap parts all the time, but now I’m compelled to find out… what happened to VT-CUP?

Congratulations Liz!
When you are on your way to legends, stop by Grand Valley Ontario, Canada.
That is the home of My Tiger CF-MAD.
If you are in need of any parts and tid-bits be sure to let me know.
We have quite an assortment and are always willing to help out a Moth in need.
The journey is fun and rewarding. Something I made a point of was to enjoy the whole process.
People always said ” oh, when it flies”, or “when it’s ready”… That’s all fine and well, but you have to go through the rebuild process, so enjoy it!
That being said. The Tiger is tons of fun to fly, our season should start in a few weeks here in Ont.

The other Tiger you mentioned A17-695 was recently sold to someone in Lindsay Ontario.
I have yet to make contact,but it’s always fun to have more Moth friends.

Take care

Andy Scott

Thank you!

I am very much looking forward to doing the work of a restoration, I’ve always enjoyed getting my hands dirty on warbirds and this is as much the culmination of that and the hobbyist historian in me than it is anything about flying. I know many of my friends and family are confused, to them aviation is all about the flying bit and they’re doing the math in their head thinking, “That’s neither a cheap, fast, or efficient way to go about it, what in the hell is she up to?” Well, I’m gonna have fun, I have no deadline or timeline in mind, I’m gonna learn a LOT of cool new skills and just see where this all takes me.

If you do find out the new owner of A17-695 please do let me know, I’d love to reach out and be in touch so that some day we can schedule a new “grudge match”… errr… reunion 😉

Thank you for your offer, I will be sure to let you know once I’ve inventoried everything. I know I’m missing one elevator, a rear windscreen, the spinner, and a rear seat. I do have what might be an original front seat but it’s in terrible shape and it doesn’t appear that it would be very comfortable if used in conjunction with a parachute, so I need to look into that. I’m also short about half the instruments, but worst-case scenario I’ll put new-ish ones in the front cockpit and keep the old ones in the back for myself 😉

Thanks again!
-Liz

Congratulations Liz!
When you are on your way to legends, stop by Grand Valley Ontario, Canada.
That is the home of My Tiger CF-MAD.
If you are in need of any parts and tid-bits be sure to let me know.
We have quite an assortment and are always willing to help out a Moth in need.
The journey is fun and rewarding. Something I made a point of was to enjoy the whole process.
People always said ” oh, when it flies”, or “when it’s ready”… That’s all fine and well, but you have to go through the rebuild process, so enjoy it!
That being said. The Tiger is tons of fun to fly, our season should start in a few weeks here in Ont.

The other Tiger you mentioned A17-695 was recently sold to someone in Lindsay Ontario.
I have yet to make contact,but it’s always fun to have more Moth friends.

Take care

Andy Scott

Liz,
A Tiger Moth was recently fitted (at Duxford) with extra tanks for a proposed flight to Australia. Perhaps you could consider similar mods to allow you a return trip to Legends?
DCW

The extra tanks would be a great comfort if I were ever to try to cross the Cascade Mountains, I will certainly consider them. But I think a flight across the Atlantic is not in my future 😉 One nice thing about Tiger Moths is how well they pack into cargo containers. If there were some anniversary coming up (100th birthday of the Tiger Moth?) hosting a global gathering, we could probably pack at least two planes per container… ^^

Liz,
A Tiger Moth was recently fitted (at Duxford) with extra tanks for a proposed flight to Australia. Perhaps you could consider similar mods to allow you a return trip to Legends?
DCW