Latest RAF Museum disposals list

The Mohawk was in Milestones of Flight for the Lindbergh connection – was it moved to storage to make way for the plastic F-35?

I think the idea of illustrating the varied impressements would be better done with a more unusual type rather than a type the RAF used in great numbers – perhaps the Hawk Major is just too similar to the Magister?

BTW, I think the Museum of Berkshire Aviation would be a excellent home for it!

On a historical note, is it’s current scheme a geunine wartime one?

The Mohawk should be on display due to the Lindbergh connection and the fact that he came to the UK for a fast touring aircraft rather than sourcing one in the USA. How things have changed. Perhaps a loan to the Woodley museum could be arranged to complement their Miles history. Besides it looks terrific in the black and orange colour scheme rather than yet another camouflaged RAF aircraft.

Yes, that’s a fair point, DaveF68. In the past more than one person has questioned the relevance to the RAFM of some of the aircraft – genuine and replica – which have been exhibited at Hendon without having any direct connection to the RAF. However the fact that an aircraft has carried a RAF serial number does not, in my opinion, necessarily make it a good candidate for display by, or even retention in the collection of, the RAFM. Both the Hawk Major and the Mohawk did so only by virtue of impressment. I rather doubt that the RAFM would wish to display examples of all impressed aircraft and there are other types of aircraft – such as the Tiger Moth – that were impressed in much greater numbers (just take a look at Peter Moss’ ‘Impressments Log’ to see). One of these, carrying its impressment serial number and colour scheme, might better represent the many and varied aircraft that were impressed during WW2. The Hawk Major and the Mohawk might be far more appropriate to other museums and collections than they are to the RAFM. On this basis, it’s not difficult to see the justification for the proposed disposal (although I’m not aware that the Mohawk has been offered for disposal).

Whatever else it is, the Mohawk is a genuine ex-RAF aircraft with an established UK military history. Much like the Hawk Major

Hopefully, by now the TTHC will have made its pitch for the Demoiselle replica as the RAFM desires to be rid of it.

The Demoiselle has nothing to do with Those Magnificent Men. It was built of steel tubing by an RAF sergeant at Gatow. We, that is the Staffordshire Aircraft Restoration Team, borrowed it in 2010 as part of our celebrations of the centenary of the 1910 Flying Meeting at Dunstall Park, Wolverhampton. It appeared, un-assembled, (as it had no flying wires) at our Wings & Wheels Fly-in that year at Halfpenny Green, and then in June at a Dunstall Park race meeting, where we also flew a Whittaker microlight, an aircraft of similar configuration to the Demoiselle, if rather more efficient construction, and the first aircraft to fly at Dunstall Park for many years. We then refurbished it, made flying wires and created a mock-up engine to display the Demoiselle at the 2010 Steam & Vintage Fair in West Park Wolverhampton. It then went on display for a while at the Boulton Paul Aircraft Heritage Project before being returned to Stafford. We still have the flying wires and the mock-up engine, and wouldn’t mind getting the aircraft back to display at the Tettenhall Transport Heritage Centre, which is only a quarter mile from Dunstall Park.

Something that always bugged me was the disposal of Venom NF3 WX905. While I admit it only had a very short RAF service life it was never the less an RAF aircraft and the Museum only has in my opinion a totally irrelevant Swiss Venom representing the aircraft type!.
Wonder if a swap/loan with Newark with the RAF Museum gifting/loaning the Swiss Venom along with the recently up for disposal ex Swiss Vampire FB6? and receive the RAF Venom back in return?. Just a thought!.

As far as I’m aware in all their dealings with RAFM since May 1989 (when WX905 was acquired), Newark has never been asked for a swap or loan of this particular airframe. That includes the most recent contacts.

Shortly after WX905 arrived I was able to negotiate the loan of the Oxford and Harvard from the then RAFM Reserve Store at Cardington, and the topic of WX905 never came up during those negotiations.

Further thought: Newark would struggle to accommodate a second Venom and display / store it inside.

Before the discussion concerning G-ADMW can proceed much further perhaps it needs to be established who owns the aeroplane – the RAFM, the heir(s) of Mr Gunner or somebody else. Without that information this discussion will only ever be in the abstract.

For the museum to be seeking to dispose of it, there can be no issue with ownership. Title will have been established, and will be clear.

The Night fighter Venom had a service life of 2-3 years in total across all variants. The NF3, barely a year. By any standard, it was pretty insignificant. I applaud Newark for taking it on – but in reality I don’t think there is any need for one at the RAF Museum. In terms of configuration, the Swiss example does represent a RAF FB4 reasonably well, and is displayed in its own correct markings. Interpretation can do the rest.

Something that always bugged me was the disposal of Venom NF3 WX905. While I admit it only had a very short RAF service life it was never the less an RAF aircraft and the Museum only has in my opinion a totally irrelevant Swiss Venom representing the aircraft type!.
Wonder if a swap/loan with Newark with the RAF Museum gifting/loaning the Swiss Venom along with the recently up for disposal ex Swiss Vampire FB6? and receive the RAF Venom back in return?. Just a thought!.

Ditto with the Mohawk. Never did understand what it had to do with the RAFM but I guess that might have been the previous owner’s decision?

Before the discussion concerning G-ADMW can proceed much further perhaps it needs to be established who owns the aeroplane – the RAFM, the heir(s) of Mr Gunner or somebody else. Without that information this discussion will only ever be in the abstract.

It would indeed be good to see the Hawk Major ex G-ADMW restored to a static exhibit at the Berkshire Aviation Museum at Reading if not possible to a flying status at the Shuttleworth Trust at Old Warden. However there would need to be an extension made at this relatively small museum to accommodate it, which I believe may have some restrictions imposed on it by the local authority. I tried to contact the Gunner family some time ago since John Gunner, the original owner had died, but received no reply on whether this aircraft could be released from the RAF store at Stafford for a better home whereby it could be seen by the public, rather than just gathering dust.

Storage is often a way of rotating exhibits, the ideal being that nothing is in perennial mothballs. Most/all museums have limited floorspace, so there is often no way of avoiding placement of items into store.

It’s just an expectation that museums will do this rather than dispose of ‘unwanted’ exhibits.

Mentioned before but I always find it strange that unique items are left in store instead of put on display at Hendon. Even if not a complete Siskin is
available, the unrestored wing that is in storage would be great exhibit don’t you think?
And what’s the use of having an overfilled storage anyway.
Cees

Is the Lindbergh Miles Mohawk still in store at Stafford? Now that is an aircraft with relatively little relevance to the RAFM which would look wonderful in my “local” museum at Woodley!

Thank you, Thunderbird167.

According to the BAPC it is BAPC194

http://www.bapc.org.uk/html/searchInner.php?id=1752

Built by the RAF according to this thread and loaned to Brooklands at one stage

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?25809-Aircraft-From-Those-Magnificent-Men

presumably, donated to the RAFM (or its predecessor) for preservation.

In 1965 the RAFM didn’t exist and there was no predecessor. Interested parties in the RAF started collecting airframes for preservation in the 60s, including airframes belonging to the RAF Air Historic Branch (the majority of the foreign hardware at Hendon and Cosford now and others) Once the AHB relinquished control of its collection and handed ownership to the museum, it gained responsibility for them. If there was no exchange of paperwork at the time the aircraft was acquired, by whatever means by the MoD, presuming that it was indeed in 1965, before the RAFM was created as an entity, then its likely that the RAFM has no paperwork for it and its status as an object for disposal can rightly be decided by the museum. The reason behind accredited museums is to ensure to a degree the long term preservation of the object in question by the receiving museum being able to store the object in conditions that will ensure its long term survival.

The condition of the Hawk Major is a disgrace, the RAFM should be ashamed at the state of it. Really needs some TLC from somebody who actually cares about this rare aircraft.

Do you know whether that’s how the museum received it or not? If so, it has not been restored since its arrival in MoD hands, therefore it’s pretty much original as it was, so it’s a valuable thing as it is, unaltered and unrestored. Stafford is a storehouse for the museum, not a display hall; things are not going to look pristine. Do you think museums polish and fix up everything they have as soon as they get them? That’s pretty much how an aircraft looks in an unrestored state. Don’t be too dismissive too hastily.

I wonder if the term ‘registered owner’ is something of a misnomer? I’m inclined to doubt that only those who own an aircraft can register it with the CAA. Probably if one searched the register one would find examples of the lessees of aircraft registered as ‘owners’. Maybe the term used by the DVLA, namely ‘registered keeper’, would be more apposite? But the bottom line is, as has been said already, that the CAA is interested only in the registration of aircraft that fly or have the intention of so doing. Details of deregistered aircraft appear on its website only as a matter of historical record. That someone appears there as the last recorded registered owner of an aircraft that has been deregistered is no indication of who now has legal title to that airframe – for that is all that it then is – or who has the legal entitlement to dispose of it.

Now, to return from the tangent which this thread has followed for the last few posts, does anyone know anything about the Santos-Dumont Demoiselle that is on the disposal list as well? Presumably it is a replica. Could it be the flyable replica that PPS built in 1965 for the film ‘Those Magnificent Men in their Flying Machines’? Or is that elsewhere or of a known fate?