Mahmood Alam's five Hawker Hunter shootdowns in 60 seconds…is it possible?

I suppose it is possible that all four broke the same way and all pulled as hard as they could.. not following the leader, just all trying to avoid getting shot at in the same way (and not necessarily from Alam). Could they all then follow similar trajectories? One aircraft fortunate enough to be in a suitable position inside the turn could indeed work its way along? Then it just comes down to the difference between observing strikes and actually downing an aircraft.

I suppose if the Hunter pilots were very inexperienced and had been briefed ‘follow the leader wherever he goes’ and he was shot down first…

Having said all of that and going back to the OP’s actual question; Is it possible to shoot down five aircraft in 30 seconds? –

It does appear possible he could have shot down the four aircraft all in line astern in a very short amount of time. It seems most likely he shot down the rear two and only damaged the lead two aircraft of the four. The time given between the first kill and coming across the four in line astern does appear to be more than 30 seconds (according to the Defence Journal article).

So to answer the question, Yes it seems possible to shoot down four, possibly five aircraft in under a minute but unlikely and you would need a particular set of circumstances and a lot of luck to actually achieve it.

But back to the question, which is about the incident – three were confirmed, not five. The five, based on one radio message, seems to include Squadron Leaders from three different squadrons, in the Pakistani version. Surely this must raise doubts, upon sober (and independent) analysis? The Defence Journal article looks more like that than the somewhat colourful ‘Badass’ piece!.

Regardless of the incident, Alam did end up as the Subcontinent’s only ace as his tally of confirmed kills exceeds 5. Now the question is whether it was Ace in a Day/Mission or simply Ace.

I suggest getting in touch with Air Commodore M. Kaiser Tufail retd of the PAF either on Faceebook or his blog Aeronaut. He is an ex GDP & courtesy insider status has written incisively on PAF’s combat history without embellishments. He would be able to give you the best insights IMO.

John Fricker interviewed Alam and an account of this was published as “30 Seconds over Sargoda” in the very first “Air Enthusiast” in Jun 71 ( AE being then virtually a reborn ‘Flying Review International). ” Feasible” seems a good summary . Four of the Hunters apparently all broke the same way when he bounced, with Alam then allegedly following around a tight line astern turn and working his way along them in a few seconds of short bursts.

….two bob’s worth .. what are the chances he got lucky with TWO pairs of EA that happened to bang into each other in the ensuing seconds after the initial contact….??

…his own tally of two very suddenly become five…maybe six !!……

The older members here will remember this as Sixty Seconds over Sargodha, which I believe was the title of an article in RAF Flying Review. It was also the heading of a chapter in John Fricker’s 1979 book “Battle for Pakistan. The Air War of 1965”, which dealt with the combat in fair length. Fricker was an ex-RAF pilot who wrote a number of pieces on flying in the middle and far east. The book is very much told from the Pakistani side, presumably because that was where Fricker had his best contacts with the personnel involved. However, it is told in the cool British style rather than being a heated piece pf propaganda.

As for “lined up like ducks in a row”: that’s more or less the description given in the text.

Unless the information is being used as a propaganda tool

More realistic, surely? It must be a rule of thumb to take the excited claims of fighter pilots and half them, wherever from and however trained and equipped.

This article (linked from Alam’s Wikipedia page) seems to suggest the 5 in a minute was nearer to 5 in a mission and is only officially credited with three of them (edit – as mentioned above by beermat)

http://www.defencejournal.com/2001/september/alam.htm

“Obviously pleased with himself, Alam announced to the radar controller that he had shot down five Hunters. An ace-in-a-mission must have sounded like a splendid achievement and, the news spread like wildfire right upto the highest echelons. Alam had barely stepped back in the squadron when Radio Pakistan announced the unparalleled feat of jet combat. The die had been cast; confirmation of the kills was now of little consequence. Alam’s prolific shooting in the war had, however, left a tidy balance in his account. He finished the war with a credit of five aircraft7 in just three dogfights, including the speed-shooting classic at Sangla Hill”

For me the doubt is about ‘target acquisition’.. and I am speaking from absolutely no experience whatsoever. They’d need to me more or less lined up like ducks in a row even to get into a firing position on each one in time, surely? Also, the version on Wikipedia seems to show three of the five Hunters being flown by Squadron Leaders. Of three different Squadrons (one of them a Mystere squadron). In line astern in the middle of a dogfight.

🙂 soz – had a right-on moment there. Know you’re not ‘like that’ !

Oh !! Hi Beermat,
That was never intended m8. I’m just recognizing things as I see them.

Bill T.

I’m not sure the doubt was ever about capability or lack of it due to the race or nationality of the pilot, Bill. 🙂

Mahmood Alam, Pakistani Fighter Pilot.

He had all the right training and experience that we know was tops at that time. He knew the Hunter very well. If he was an aggressive “Fighter” pilot once in the air that could be a very formidable foe. I’ve known Pakistani’s who have that “Annoyed and outraged” sense of justice, that was needed to carry him through. A Pakistani and Sira Lankan pair of surgeons did my “Stent” fitment up in a Liverpool Hospital and they were brilliant at what they did. And while out in OMAN, we had an excellent Model Aircraft building and flying Club us Brits operated at Thumrait and we had one Omani SOAF Officer and one Pakistani Medical Centre Flight Sgt who loved the building and flying. The Officer was very good and the Flight Sgt. overwhelmed by what was alien to him, but we guided and helped him through his first Trainer build and got him up to his first solo, which he flew beautifully and landed the same. We all were impressed by his intent to “Stick with it” agreed by the 2 Hunter Fighter pilots (Brits) who were also model Aircraft Fliers there So with the right Pakistani, the right training/experience, this is totally possible.

My view comes from many years serving in RAF as ground crew and again out in Oman with SOAF. (Airworks) getting to know pilots very well. OK, The article written in Badassoftheweek yes does have inaccuracies, but I would say most of Mahmood Alams story has a lot of solid substance. I’ve never heard of this man or his deeds before either, which is a shame.

So for me its a YES !! till someone proves otherwise. ( I’ll not ask a friend or go 50-50 )

Bill T.

Hans Joachim Marseille

His attack method to break up formations, which he perfected, resulted in a high proportion of kills, and in rapid, multiple victories per attack. On 3 June 1942, Marseille attacked alone a formation of 16 Curtiss P-40 fighters and shot down six aircraft of No. 5 Squadron SAAF, five of them in six minutes, including three aces: Robin Pare (six victories), Cecil Golding (6.5 victories) and Andre Botha (five victories). This success inflated his score further, recording his 70–75th victories. Marseille was awarded the Ritterkreuz mit Eichenlaub on 6 June 1942.[54] His wingman Rainer Pöttgen, nicknamed Fliegendes Zählwerk the (“Flying Counting Machine”),[55] said of this fight:

All the enemy were shot down by Marseille in a turning dogfight. As soon as he shot, he needed only to glance at the enemy plane. His pattern [of gunfire] began at the front, the engine’s nose, and consistently ended in the cockpit. How he was able to do this not even he could explain. With every dogfight he would throttle back as far as possible; this enabled him to fly tighter turns. His expenditure of ammunition in this air battle was 360 rounds (60 per aircraft shot down).[

Gerhard Schopfel shot down 4 hurricanes in 1 min. They were in formation and did not know he was there. So it depends on situation. If you had to visually acquire, pursue and shoot down each that would be very challenging

Stepwilk,

I’d suggest a look at PAF archives regarding Alam’s mission. If you want to do a serious article, I think that speculation is probably not the best way to start. I’m not saying that Alam’s claim (or PAF records even) would give the correct account, but they would at least give an idea of what he claimed and might even reveal that over the years his claims have been stated in error.

It would not be the first time.