Yeovilton secrets

As was the “Hemp” Nimrod at Kinloss that turned up dressed in the “experimental” 🙂 metallic glossy brown “turd” ( “Sorry Chief it was wot was on the tin” )
Back on Subject there were a few Phantoms ( and a couple of Lightnings) in RAFG flying around with various shades of “Barley Grey” in the late 70’s. One could go on…D-Day squadron painted stripe variations , inc. later on in Suez ,Yellow/Black , then White (when the paint ran out) The Pink Recce Malta Spitfire “It won’t be seen late afternoon” -shot down on its first mission: “Black Death ” Harriers in the Falklands. All real life cases of the front line operators having to just get on with the job, whilst the rear support echelons try to catch up with the drag curve and make sure that the History books will later record the fiction of how it should have happened ……

Why is it always assumed that “those in the field” had to mix paints, when paints came in specific tins and aircraft were usually painted in factories and MUs?

When Gulf War One broke out, our paint shop guys (at a well known Tornado base) were personally witnessed to be mixing the “Desert Pink” in a 45 gallon oil drum with the top cut off, oh and stirring it with an oar from the station sailing club. When I asked where they had got this “official” shade from they replied that in the absence of the MOD making its mind up they had shown initiative and “mixed it to the shade they were seeing on the in-theatre coverage CNN were showing on the crewroom telly”… True story:)

Why is it always assumed that “those in the field” had to mix paints, when paints came in specific tins and aircraft were usually painted in factories and MUs?

As someone brought up on a diet of Commando comics and Airfix kits, I blame Humbrol. IIRC, in the Humbrol Authentics range one of the HB paints was described as Sky Type S. It was the only paint with the Type S suffix in that set of paints. I think it must have become ingrained after all these years and “sky” and “type S” have become inextricably linked like a Pavlovian response even though I know damn well that sky is a colour and type s is the type of paint – s for smooth with a smaller particle of pigment size to make surfaces less draggy and provide some small increase in speed

Not “always assumed” Graham, but well aware of many instances when this was indeed the case, particularly with Squadrons serving out of U.K. for example. Aircraft were battle damage and ground accident repaired , cannibalised and resprayed at squadron level – if not physically painted with brushes, Roundels sometimes marked out with chalk and string , etc.etc.

Why is it always assumed that “those in the field” had to mix paints, when paints came in specific tins and aircraft were usually painted in factories and MUs?

Oh do look up Sky Type “S” on the internet if you want a laugh as to all the counter claims as to it’s origins , what “S” meant etc. It all long pre-dates the Wyvern and has been a running topic for pedants for decades.
I doubt if those in the field under wartime conditions having to mix paints to look “something like this”, when there was no other option, would have cared too much…….

My original comment was meant to be light-hearted – it just goes to show that you shouldn’t make jokes on the internet. We entirely agree on the name for the colour.

Personally I agree that Sky is not “duck egg blue” – it is “duck egg green” and Sky Blue is “duck egg blue”. However, that is not what the Air Ministry said. We are entirely free to speculate on why: or why they thought it necessary to distinguish the type of paint used underneath from the type used above. It has been suggested that the term “Type S” was meant to apply to all three colours (i.e. including Dark Green and Dark Earth), which would at least make sense. However as long as “Type S” is specifically attached to “Sky” then it had to be taken that way. Later AMOs and CAFOs presumably only refer to it as Sky.

I’m in favour of both the old (and new) photos and the various digressions leading from them. Talking of which, Sky is indeed the correct designation of the colour, however “Sky Type S” and “Duck Egg Blue” are not unwarranted inventions but the phrases used in the original official Air Ministry documentation. The “Type S” was not part of the official colour (as opposed to paint) definition, but unsurprisingly it stuck.

Sky is NOT Duck Egg Blue. Sky Type S is not the designator for the tint. You’re right in saying that ‘it stuck’, which was my point. But it doesn’t make it correct.

I think Bruce Robertson supports Lee on this one. Paraphrasing from his 1956 “Aircraft Camouflage and Markings.”
“The various wartime finishes remained officially in force until 1st October 1946,when naval aircraft were divided into two classes for markings, to take effect for new aircraft immediately….Metal-clad aircraft were to have extra dark sea grey upper-surfaces,…to meet sky under-surfaces.”

I’m in favour of both the old (and new) photos and the various digressions leading from them. Talking of which, Sky is indeed the correct designation of the colour, however “Sky Type S” and “Duck Egg Blue” are not unwarranted inventions but the phrases used in the original official Air Ministry documentation. The “Type S” was not part of the official colour (as opposed to paint) definition, but unsurprisingly it stuck.

Also, it wasn’t the Type 510 that became the Scimitar, but (as said) the Swift. The Scimitar came from a separate twin-engined development line, starting with the Type 508. There’s lots of development history bound in with those Supermarine Type designations.

Correct! The Wyvern was never ‘white and darkish blue’, but was painted in Sky Type S (Duck Egg Green) with Dark Sea Grey top. I first photographed it in those colours outside the museum in March 1969 and it remained in those colours until the early ’90s when it was stripped to bare metal. The photos Robbo has posted is indeed in those colours and only looks ‘bluish’ due to the poor weather and type of film used.

Adrian

Not quite correct. For ‘Sky Type S’ please read ‘Sky’. And it isn’t ‘Duck Egg Green’ at all. They’re terms produced by urban myths and have been perpetuated over many years. And the top is Extra Dark Sea Grey, not Dark Sea Grey.

I noticed in your S-55/Whirlwind Warpaint, which Mick showed me his copy of the other day, that you’ve used these terms throughout. Also your paint specs are incorrectly referenced as BS.318C. They should read BS381C.

Likewise, the Whirlwind HAS.22s of 781 NAS (and the Sea Devons and the Wessex) were Grass Green, not Emerald Green (although at the time we wrote our FAA book we didn’t have that information, we’ve known for several years now). Compare the green of the drawings with the (very nice) colour image on the front and it will be quite clear.

There are also some errors with blues and RAF Blue Greys I noticed. And shades of dayglo (Red Orange, not Red). All detailed within the chapter on colour schemes and markings in FAAHS1943.

Xtangomike: Ref the Supermarine 510/517 debate, that was me on Facebook. Glad to see others have recognised the difference. And the Wyvern is Sky, not ‘Duck Egg Blue’…..!

Lee

Yes please carry on we love the old pictures of days gone by,and yes it goes off topic but thats what happens in a forum ,its all good fun…lol

Jeeze guys …I’m sorry I misled you…I saw the Wyvern outside 43 years ago…So I got my shades of grey and duck egg blue wrong….did you like the other pics, or shall we continue the paint hue conversation….don’t know why I bothered !!

[ATTACH=CONFIG]244167[/ATTACH]
NA.39 outside the museum, August 1978

I’m in agreement, the photos, which I found during a quick google, don’t suggest blue and white, they’re Sky/EDSG. The one on the Airliners.net link is pretty clear. However, they do confirm that the Wyvern stood guard in front of the museum. The Blackburn NA.39 neatly fits the bill for the blue and white scheme.

Blackburn NA39 – Yeovilton October 2009 by Rob Leigh, on Flickr

The Buccaneer S1 outside the museum was blue and white, though.

Are you referring to the Wyvern or Supermarine 510/517?

The only blue and white aircraft on outside display that I can recall at the FAA Museum was the NA.39 (Buccaneer prototype)

Correct! The Wyvern was never ‘white and darkish blue’, but was painted in Sky Type S (Duck Egg Green) with Dark Sea Grey top. I first photographed it in those colours outside the museum in March 1969 and it remained in those colours until the early ’90s when it was stripped to bare metal. The photos Robbo has posted is indeed in those colours and only looks ‘bluish’ due to the poor weather and type of film used.

Thanks Robbo…Blue and white too………….I didn’t think I was dreaming, although I remembered the Buccaneer as well. Great pics.

Now some more !!

As I recall it the Wyvern was in natural metal when it arrived, was then later painted up in spurious ” Python” Wyvern FAA Dark Grey and Duck Egg colours before latterly reverting to a more polished metal than it had initially.
If you Google “Westland Wyvern FAA Museum – Images ” you can see all three of these incarnations.
I don’t remember ever seeing it in Blue and White.

Thanks Robbo…Blue and white too………….I didn’t think I was dreaming, although I remembered the Buccaneer as well. Great pics.

Here’s the Wyvern in 1972
034. Yeovilton 08-72. Wyvern TF.1, VR137 by Alan Allen, on Flickr

1973
053. Yeovilton 05-73. Wyvern TF.1, VR137 by Alan Allen, on Flickr

Same year
http://www.airliners.net/photo/UK—Navy/Westland-Wyvern-TF1/2355568/L/

In bare metal at Cranfield pre 1966
http://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contributions/GibbinsBryan/8368.htm