Avro Lancaster KM-B 44 Squadron

There are quite a few posts that credit 44 Squadron as “caring” for the aircraft which is not quite correct.  Being on RAF charge, the aircraft may have been allocated to 44 squadron for administration purposes but, back in the 1960s the Waddington Wing was on Centralised Servicing and none of the squadrons had any technical personnel.  PA474 was restored and maintained under Mechanical Engineering Aircraft Squadron (MEAS) by a team of SNCOs many of whom were WW2 veterans with Lancaster experience.  Also, none of the 44 Squadron aircrew had current tail wheel heavy aircraft experience and the original crews that flew PA474 were Hastings crew from RAF Lindholme.  44 Squadron’s contribution to her care was minimal. In 1968 and 1969 I was privileged to work on PA474 doing extensive rewiring of the perished rubber insulated 1945 wiring and installing an inverter system to power a TACAN system to enable the aircraft to find its way around the country. 

As regards emergency escape hatches, A.P. 2062 A & C Vol 1 Sect. 3 paragraph 8 states there are three – “(i) In the cockpit canopy above the pilot’s cockpit (ii) In the intermediate centre portion (iii) In the centre rear portion above the end of the main floor”. 

Air Ministry, thank you very much for the two great photos. You’ve solved my problem.

The turret is the key. I should have checked & checked again. But in fact, my Avro drawing D.4395, “GA of fuselage”, is for the Glenn-Martin turret, but does not say so. I had some misgivings about the short distance shown between the cockpit & the turret location, but didn’t follow them up. I should also have taken account of the relatively high drawing number, 4395. My apologies to all for this bad error on my part.

I should have been looking instead at D.1629, “GA of fuselage”, last amended 14-9-37. Although that is an uncomfortably early date, it is stated as valid for both Manchester & Lancaster I & II.

A quick comparison between D.4395 and D.1629 shows all the frames in the same locations which is a relief.

The location of the Glenn-Martin turret between frames 19 to 22 is centred on the rear escape hatch location between frames 20 & 21 . The length front to rear of the rear hatch is 18 3/8″ which is just about 0.5″ shorter than the front hatch.

The fault was my laziness. D.1629 is in a different less used database to D.4395 in my system.

One interesting thought to leave you with, either the addition of a different aircraft, i.e. the Lancaster I & II added to a drawing validity list for the Manchester, does not count as an amendment and is not recorded or the date 14-9-37 is a very early one to have a detailed drawing of the Lancaster. Could this change some myths about the genesis of the Lanc?

Mike

My questions remain unfortunately. Did all Lancasters built before mid 1945 have two escape hatches?
Did all Lancasters built after mid 1945 have just one hatch?

I think the answer lies less in when the airframe was manufactured and more in which mid upper turret the particular airframe was intended to have, i.e. FN50 or 150 in “traditional” position = two escape hatches (BI/III/BX), Glenn Martin or FN150 in “forward” position = only one escape hatch (BX(later)/BVII/BVII INTERIM).

Unless I’ve misunderstood your question?

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I’m sorry that’s not quite right. When the BBMF left Coltishall for it’s new home at Coningsby in March 1976 the turret had not yet been fitted.

The turret was started to be fitted at Coningsby round about the 18 march 76, she did a display in Holland on 4 may and it was finished by then.

Sideslip, you are quite correct. The Flight moved from Coltishall to Coningsby on 1st March 1976. The mid upper gun turret was fitted at Coningsby on 18 March 1976, so the photo was taken between 18 March 1976 and 1979 when the AJ-G codes were added.

This turret was shipped to UK by RN and fitted to PA474 in Jan 1976.

I’m sorry that’s not quite right. When the BBMF left Coltishall for it’s new home at Coningsby in March 1976 the turret had not yet been fitted.

I must assume from all the above that the GA of the fuselage, D.4395, was issued, without amendments in 1945, not 1943.

Also from all the above whether or not the photo at the start of this thread shows two or just one escape hatch is irrelevant. I accept that the aircraft is PA474. To reach the state shown in the photo, the mid-upper turret had first to be removed and then re-placed. Also a substantial test rig on the fuselage top had been installed and later removed. With all these alterations the fuselage top and the absence of a rear hatch cannot represent a production aircraft.

Let me review my argument from Avro design documentation.

Slots cut out of frames for stringers 2a, 2, 1, 2, 2a
Stringers are symmetric about aircraft centre line, stringer 1 is on centre line.

Frame 19, D.3153 last amended 15-3-45, has these slots
Frame 18, D.3153 last amended 14-3-45, has these slots.
Frame 17, D.3152 last amended 15-3-45, has these slots.
Frame 16, D.3151 last amended 14-3-45, has these slots.
Frame 15, D.3150 last amended 20-5-42, has these slots.
Frame 14, D.3149 last amended 27-1-42, has these slots.
Frame 13, D.3148 last amended 31-5-44, has these slots
Frame 12, D.2973 last amended 10-5-45, Transport Joint, all stringers terminated, no slots
Frame 11, D.3146 last amended 9-11-45, has these slots

Frame 10, D.3145 last amended 29-4-45, DOES NOT have these slots
Frame 9, D.3144 last amended 15-7-45, DOES NOT have these slots

Frame 8, D.3143 last amended 15-4-49, has these slots except 2a
Frame 7, D.3142 last amended 17-5-44, has these slots except 2a
Frame 6, D.2973 last amended 10-5-45, Transport Joint, all stringers terminated, no slots

The GA of the fuselage, D.4395, shows auxiliary stringer 2a to be fitted only between frames 12 and 16
It also shows the front escape hatch (or as Avro calls it Emergency Exit) between frames 9 and 10
This hatch is mounted horizontally on stringer 3 both sides as well as the two frames.

The distance between the rear of frame 9 to front of frame 10, is 18 27/32″, this being the length front to back of the front hatch.

If a rear hatch were fitted, most likely it would be between frames 16 to 17 or 17 to 18.
But in both locations stringers 2, 1, 2 are shown fitted and continuous.
In addition the distances between both frames 16 to 17 and 17 to 18 are just 15 1/8″.
So either a rear hatch if fitted is some 3″, 20%, shorter than the front one or the position of one of the frames is adjusted..
I would imagine that both these two possibilities are most unlikely.
Moreover, the stringers 2, 1, 2 are shown to be continuous throughout frames 12 to 19.
They would have to have been shown as deleted in the location of the rear hatch.

So the conclusion from the above documentation is that all Lancasters built after the issued amendments had only one escape hatch along the top of the centre fuselage, not two as shown by PA474 in its current state.

My questions remain unfortunately. Did all Lancasters built before mid 1945 have two escape hatches?
Did all Lancasters built after mid 1945 have just one hatch?

I would need ro know that there is no contradictory photographic evidence to be sure. Can anyone help with this? That is with a photo of a production Lanc built before mid 1945 with just one escape hatch. And with a photo of a production Lanc built after mid 1945 showing two hatches.

How many Lancs were built after mid 1945 anyway?

Many, many thanks to all of you for your help.
My very best wishes to you all
Mike

“A Lancaster at Peace” by Sqn. Ldr. R.E. Leach is a good start.

i also think the little white blade aerial some six feet or so back from the astrodome is definately a post war mod for radio comms, as i dont recall that being on wartime lancs?

Where do these stories come from?

The same place that all the rest of the rubbish on this forum comes from I expect – incorrect information given in what appears to be an otherwise comprehensive and reliable source. I am happy to be corrected.

I am amazed that there appears to be no single easily available fully comprehensive source of accurate/reliable information on PA474 – you would think someone would have prepared a full chronicle of it, right down to the last rivet, but if such a thing exists (either online or in hard copy), I can’t find it. Even the history given on the BBMF web page seems to me to be very sketchy.

PA474 was NEVER converted to B.VII, it has always been a B.1. Where do these stories come from?

I’m amazed that the history of PA474 is now being confused with the markings of other aircraft it has carried. I’d posted earlier a list of the aircraft she has represented since 1973, include KC-A of 617 Squadron, she has only had these markings since 2012. She’s not the aircraft built in 1943! PA474 was built in May 1945, too late for operations in Europe.
She then went to East Africa with 82 Squadron on survey work, and then to Cranfield as a test aircraft, including carrying a laminar flow wing on its back. Intended for the RAF museum, she was taken on by 44 Squadron and return to flight by them, and carried their Squadron markings KM-B. It then went to BBMF in 1973 still carrying 44 Squadron’s codes.

The turret was obtained from Argentina in 1975. It was from a training school and never fitted to an Argentine aircraft. The AAF stopped flying their last Lancaster in around 1966. This turret was shipped to UK by RN and fitted to PA474 in Jan 1976. That is why I said that the picture must have been taken between 1976 and 1979 when PA474 changed codes from KM-B to AJ-G.

And yes, the larger fins were there from the beginning, like a number of late build Lancasters.

The history of PA474 given on the BBMF website (http://www.raf.mod.uk/bbmf/theaircraft/lancasterpa474.cfm) says that it came off the assembly line at the Vickers-Armstrong factory at Broughton near Chester on 31st May 1945, as a B.1 and was converted to a Mk VII for use by the Tiger Force, but the war in the Far East ended before it was needed. It was then converted for photo reconnaissance about 1947/8 which involved the removal and fairing over of all the gun turrets, and stripping the exterior back to a bare metal finish.

When it went to Cranfield for the wing testing it was still minus all turrets. If you have not already seen them, there are some details and pics to be found here: http://www.raf.mod.uk/bbmf/news/index.cfm?storyid=0E209E46-5056-A318-A847984A94BF9C84, and further photos here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/m0nuz/with/6844987884/ (scroll almost to the bottom of the page). There is a further in flight photo of PA474 wing testing on this Dutch site: http://www.strijdbewijs.nl/birds/lancaster/p5.htm, as well as a photo of it towards the end of the KM-B period, still without the mid-upper turret, but having the City of Lincoln crest on the port side.

Now, when were the Lincoln-like extended rudder trims installed? And wasn’t the aircraft used for trials with a vertical wing or similar stuck on its back and at that time lacked the nid-upper turret. Later, in the mists of mental fog I think a mid-upper turret was obtained from Argentina where they had stopped operating Lancs not long before.

The later type of rudder with the extension was used on all the later Lancasters, as well as the Lincolns – not sure when the rudder extensions first appeared on the Lancasters – probably late 1944 (after the Lancaster IV/Lincoln prototype first flew??). PA474 was built with this type to start with.

Ok, it looks as though I am wrong. Internet says PA474 was issued to 617 squadron to replace aircraft lost in Chastise. So it was issued some time in late May or in June 1943. So PA474, the aircraft shown here was built probably in the first half of 1943.

I was puzzled by this misconception, Mike – but I realised what happened. PA474 was built in May 1945 (as mentioned), but as the website says:
“PA474 is currently painted to represent Lancaster DV385, “Thumper Mk III” of 617 (‘Dambuster’) Squadron, with the code letters ‘KC-A’. This aircraft was one of the brand-new standard Lancasters issued to 617 Squadron as replacements after the ‘Dams Raid’ in 1943.”. The aircraft it’s currently representing was built in October 1943.

I’m sure that photo was taken by (the now late) Arthur Gibson in (IIRC) 1976.
Ed

I suggest this was taken by a Robert Winslade while the Bof B aircaft were in transit to the Channel Islands.
he has agreat Photostream on Flickr well worth a look https://www.flickr.com/people/42836978@N02/

I had better state my purpose exactly. I have Avro drawing D.4395, G.A. of fuselage, which has issue date of either 7-12-43 or 7-12-45. The last digit of the year could be either a 3 or a 5. This drawing shows only one escape hatch in the centre section. But PA474 indubitably now has two such hatches.

The series of drawings of the frames/formers between frame 10 (the back of the forward hatch) to frame 19 (forward edge of mid-upper turret) are fully consistent with this 4395 and those frames where a second rear hatch would be, frames 17, 18, 19, are last amended in 1945.

Detailed examination of the photo at the pixel level suggests strongly that no rear escape hatch existed in the aircraft at that time.
Can anyone confirm this?

So during which periods of time did production Lancs have only one escape hatch: 1944 onwards if issue of D.4395 was in 1943 or 1946 onwards if D.4395 was issued in 1945.

How come PA474 now has two escape hatches while when it was with 44 squadron and afterwards it had only one (according to my interpretation of the photo)?

Mike

PA474 came off the production line on 31 May 1945 according to the RAF website.

Ok, it looks as though I am wrong. Internet says PA474 was issued to 617 squadron to replace aircraft lost in Chastise. So it was issued some time in late May or in June 1943. So PA474, the aircraft shown here was built probably in the first half of 1943.

Now, when were the Lincoln-like extended rudder trims installed? And wasn’t the aircraft used for trials with a vertical wing or similar stuck on its back and at that time lacked the nid-upper turret. Later, in the mists of mental fog I think a mid-upper turret was obtained from Argentina where they had stopped operating Lancs not long before.

So I’m getting near now to what I wanted; the removal of the trials vertical airfoil/wing and installation of the turret required a re-building of a major part of the top decking of the fuselage.

Someone, several years ago, complained in some forum or other of the shoddy mis-aligned riveting visible along the fuselage top from the astrodome. It was not shoddy work, but a major and successful re-working of the top fuselage between aft of the astrodome to the mid-upper turret location.

Oh, the joy of digging out old memories.
Mike

I have seen that image (or one very similar) before (in a book?), and a quick search shows it to be in several places around t’internet, and accompanied by captions identifying it as PA474.

PA474 was repainted as KM-B during its restoration under the care of 44 Sqn at Waddington around 1966. It carried this marking until the end of the 1979 display season (and was adopted by the City of Lincoln in 1975 :)).

It became AJ-G for the 1980 season, and underwent a major service between the 1984 and 1985 seasons when the code was changed to SR-D.

……and it was built in 1945.
The turret was added at the beginning of 1976, so the photo was taken between then and 1979 when it became AJ-G