Handley Page Hampdens…used by Coastal Command?

Extra Dark Sea Grey over Sky was used on Beaufighters and Mosquitos, but not until after the Hampdens had been withdrawn. I think this is another misinterpretation of TSS.

Harry Moyle’s Hampden File shows AT225 in CC white on P109.

Profiles on P188 show AT147 of 489 Sqn wearing CC strike colours of Dark Sea Grey and Sky.

Hope this is of use.

I suspect it will have been repainted when the torpedo bomber mods were done, which seems the obvious time as some repainting was necessary anyway. Aircraft will not have been repainted on the squadron because the necessary facilities weren’t there, though this doesn’t rule out covering the undersides in black distemper for night operations. This does however suggest that all the torpedo bombers would have been repainted, whereas ones with the high night demarcation do look to have retained Temperate Land. I feel it safe to consider all aircraft with a low demarcation to have been repainted, and repainting them TLS doesn’t make a lot of sense.

There seems to have been a mash-up of loads of schemes in the modellers/enthusiast interpretations, but I’m not convinced there were more than a small handful of actual schemes present.

PS I did find another thread, but it was here and not as long as I mis-remembered. http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?136708-RAFM-Hampden-tail-done&highlight=Hampdens+in+Russia

P1344 Hampden

Hi Graham,

I have been looking at the photo and thinking it going on its an old airframe and weathered (albeit, it might have been painted in CC colours at the station?) I also thought there were two colours visible to the side but no clear demarkation line and possibly and colour with the underside colour as well. Just no clear demarcation and whether it is from the light/film/weathering etc, I do not know.

It seems Hampdens had 101 different variations of markings, colour schemes and it might be that all of the Hamdens sent by 144Sqn and 455 Sqn were a mismatch of loads of schemes.

What was carried by P1344 is still not conclusive though I would have though Temperate Sea Scheme upper surface colours down to the sides and with a black underside would be as good a scheme (even if the one in the photo did not seem to have a black underside – unless it was really just the wings and tailplane).

regards

Mark

I’ll see if I can track down a longer thread on this subject, possibly on Britmodeller. In it a definite claim was made that 455 Sq Hampdens were in Temperate Sea Scheme, that is Extra Dark Sea Grey and Dark Slate Grey with Sky undersides, as indeed was proper for Coastal Command strike aircraft at the time. There was an option of Night undersides for night operations.

in this photo, I believe I can see a separation line between two upper surface colours running roughly diagonally forward and upwards. I don’t believe in a single colour grey uppersurfaces, because the two colours of TSS are very difficult to distinguish in some photographs, depending upon the type of film, any filters used, the light condition and presumably the level of fading of the two – EDSG fades much more rapidly than DSG. It is a bit of a mug’s game attempting to interpret the colours when there’s a suggestion of TSS involved, as it can look like almost any other RAF scheme. What I would say is that the colours in the photo above do appear too light and have too little contrast for Temperate Land (Dark Green and Dark Earth) as used by Bomber Command.

EDIT Not the one I was looking for but interesting http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/64764-coastal-command-colour-scheme/?hl=%2Bhampden+%2Btorpedo+%2Bbombers#entry705335

Evening
I went to the restoration centre at Cosford on Saturday and had a long discussion with the guy who is restoring her and went through all the research I did on Operation OratorHam. First question I had was why she was being finished in Bomber Command colours. It seems as though this was based on evidence on the airframe and former members who are trying to recall things from 70 years ago.
What is clear is that P1344 was finished in green/brown/black sides and undersides. This was a factory finish and the colours she flew in whilst at 14OTU.
She was then upgraded to a TB1 though there does not seem to be evidence of a factory finish – at least not the Temperate Sea Scheme upper surfaces.
The photo attached is from the family of the pilot (P/O EHE Perry). This was from a couple of photos taken at roughly the same time – one with the crew and one with the ground crew. It is unclear if it is when he joined 144 Sqn or just before his first mission or even his trip to Russia. What is clear is there is no black. I am trying to decide if there is any Temperate Sea Scheme upper surface colours or whether it just seems to be overall grey – but which one. Are there two upper colours??
Hampdens in Russia seemed to be overall grey and some overall grey with black undersides?
http://ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/handley-page-hampden-ae436-pl-39180.html
144 Sqn transferred to Coastal Command on 21st April 1942.
A Sgt Gillham is recorded as having a taxying accident on the 10 August in Anson R9608 with Hampden P1344. Was this when the Hereford tail L6012 was fitted and which had a wavy finish between the upper and lower colours. he port wing belong to another Hamden Pxxx and was fitted on the 10.10.41 and thought to be prior to her upgrade to TB1 standard.
Anyway the question is what are/is the grey colour(s) and would the markings over the grey have been red (usual to black undersurfaces) or light grey?
Before they go to to far I want to be sure they paint P1344 correctly (if they are going to represent her as P1344 which should be the only one).
regards
MS
©Perry family.[ATTACH=CONFIG]241975[/ATTACH]

AE297 was previously H of 207 Sq, which despite it’s number was not a Coastal unit, but Manchester equipped. It had at least two Hampdens in July/August 1941. So not any help with the light bottom.

However P1244/Y was previously with 455 Sq, as was AD829/W and AT113, but this was quite likely to be before 455 went over to torpedo work… The Hampden File doesn’t list MUs the aircraft spent any time in.

Found another pic……shows a light coloured bottom as well……RAF operated at the No. 5 Air Observers School, Jurby, Isle of Man in 1942…..Here I am not sure…it’s a training aircraft, BUT it is still in the UK area….would it have been painted with high Vis. yellow?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]234380[/ATTACH]

It would seem to be a reasonable assumption that these were in Day Bomber, given that the unit was in Bomber Command. However I have one suggestion: were these aircraft supplied whilst the squadron was working up, so a peak demand from Hampdens may have resulted in the MUs despatching aircraft from stock that were prepared for Coastal Command? They would then be painted properly at the squadron’s convenience: the third photo does show a very streaky application of Night to the sides of the nose! To check this, can we find the serials of aircraft allocated to the unit, and their previous histories? This wouldn’t confirm any use of TSS, but it might provide a decent hint. Some aircraft may have been repainted for CC without ever serving in an active unit, of course, and I know no way of determining that without access to the record cards – and possibly not even then.

that is a pretty logical assumption Graham…..I did do a search for 408 Squadron Hampden Mk. I AE297 EQ*F …..there are some records…namely it being lost in action…..nothing that I could find though

I’m not sure how important the “streakiness” of the “Night” being applied is…..I have seen lots of photos of Operational Halifax’s and Lancasters where the “night” looks like absolute rubbish as well….The difference is, what we see now is a much higher gloss paint…the Operational paint then was very mat and showed all the stains and streaks associated with regular flying…as well as the dents and deformities in the metal work.

I really have no idea…but 3 of the photos clearly show operational Hampdens with 408 Squadron with light coloured bottoms..( and we can assume that they are NOT yellow, as the Squadrons flew and operated from the UK)……and two show planes with both 408 AND 420 Squadron with the Night Bomber scheme…..which are by far the more commonly seen paint schemes…

I would say that they are trainers in Canada and the undersides are yellow.

Oops, just read Webpilot’s post, so scrap the Canada bit. Still think that it is a trainer scheme in the first pic though.

Yeh, the problem with that is this….neither 420 Squadron NOR 408 Squadron flew in Canada…they were BOTH raised in the UK of RCAF personnel and stayed overseas for the duration……additionally, I have never seen any evidence of Hampdens painted yellow in Canada as the few OTU’s equipped with them were also conducting the Patrols etc. on the Coasts. just as Graham said…they retained their Operational Paint……

Both Squadrons where equipped with their aircraft IN England, where they manned and trained, becoming operational within the year.

Interestingly, I looked up 408 Squadron Hampden Mk.1 AE297 Coded EQ F That plane was lost on 1942 – 05 – 08 over Warnemunde Germany piloted by Flt.Sgt. Jack Wellington Markle, RCAF, along with Hampden Mk.1 AE 288 Coded EQ H, piloted by Flt. Sgt.James Shield Norton who went down in the sea off Denmark…Both Planes lost the entire crews….

And the 420 Squadron Hampden in the pictures…AE 384 PT M….was sent to Australia after the war as a War memorial…where it was never erected as a monument and scrapped.

OTU aircraft would not normally have yellow undersides, but retained their operational scheme. Trials aircraft would be another matter. For Patricia Bay (Canada) in my previous post read Sydney Bay, 32 OTU, there is a photo of a white-bellied aircraft in Air Britain’s The Hampden File, and elsewhere. As is Brian Lyffe’s photo (I presume) of AT225/E. Looking through various books I’ve found several photos of 408 Sq aircraft in standard Night, but none with light undersides.

……is it a general consensus that these pics represent Day Bomber paint schemes?…..or white bottomed TSS?

I would say that they are trainers in Canada and the undersides are yellow.

Oops, just read Webpilot’s post, so scrap the Canada bit. Still think that it is a trainer scheme in the first pic though.

Should anyone have access to the records the Met Flight Hampden referred to in #18 is AT225 (E/1404).

It would seem to be a reasonable assumption that these were in Day Bomber, given that the unit was in Bomber Command. However I have one suggestion: were these aircraft supplied whilst the squadron was working up, so a peak demand from Hampdens may have resulted in the MUs despatching aircraft from stock that were prepared for Coastal Command? They would then be painted properly at the squadron’s convenience: the third photo does show a very streaky application of Night to the sides of the nose! To check this, can we find the serials of aircraft allocated to the unit, and their previous histories? This wouldn’t confirm any use of TSS, but it might provide a decent hint. Some aircraft may have been repainted for CC without ever serving in an active unit, of course, and I know no way of determining that without access to the record cards – and possibly not even then.

1404 Met Flight (at St Eval) was equipped with Hampdens, and they, too, were painted white as in post 16. (From a photo in Even the Birds Were Walking)

Edit: See http://airfixtributeforum.myfastforum.org/Airfix_1_72_Handley_Page_Hampden_04011__about43817.html and scroll down to the post dated 11 Jan 2009 at 2300. Looking at the photo referred to above it’s just possible to make out a darker colour on the top (but not side) of the engine nacelle.

Brian

Thats awesome Airfixtwin…

so we now have set on end everything stated earlier….

Just to confirm with you all that know better than I…….the series of RCAF Hampdens that show a light coloured bottom…are those indeed, confirmed DAY BOMBER paint schemes?

Cheers and thanks all

Hampden in white 😮 …..and with it’s mate the Beaufort

[ATTACH=CONFIG]234360[/ATTACH]

OK, some more pics I have come across,

and one can see my confusion as to paint schemes……..not sure I am understanding why two Squadrons, BOTH flying in no.5 Group Bomber Command would have different paint….three show CLEARLY light coloured, and one with black all from 408 Squadron and the other ( 420 Squadron )the more common black.

RCAF 408 Squadron Hampden [ATTACH=CONFIG]234336[/ATTACH] 408 Squadron Hampden Mk. I AE297 EQ*F [ATTACH=CONFIG]234337[/ATTACH]

another 408 Squadron Hampden [ATTACH=CONFIG]234338[/ATTACH] and another…[ATTACH=CONFIG]234339[/ATTACH]

and finally RCAF 420 Squadron Hamden Mk. I AE384 PT*M [ATTACH=CONFIG]234340[/ATTACH]

Now BOTH of these RCAF Squadron’s where formed in the UK in 1941….no.408 ( Goose ) at Lindholme, Yorkshire, on June 24, 1941 and no.420 ( Snowy Owl )formed in No. 5 Group, Bomber Command on 19 December 1941 at Waddington, Lincolnshire……surprisingly 420 Squadron flew the Hampden’s as their SECOND aircraft…getting Manchesters first.

comments or info welcome lads…..

the first shot is P1272 while serving with the Torpedo Development Unit. the paleundersurfaces match the shade of the yellow ring of the roundel and its thought it was painted yellow for visibility trials. P1272 went missing whilst on a bombing raid to Hamburg on 1 December 1941 when with 455 Sq

Checking files on the other one

I came across a Pic today of a Hampden that is sitting on the tarmac, nose away from the camera and has the upper gun blister tarped….it does however show, what I would assume is the TSS UPPER with white sides and bottom…..I tried about a dozen times to get it to pull up so I could post it….all to no avail….has anyone else seen this pic or have a copy of it?……this seems to be a bit of a mystery as , as has been mentioned here that the Hampdens didn;t get the white CC scheme……

any info on it at all would be great….cheers

the first shot is P1272 while serving with the Torpedo Development Unit. the paleundersurfaces match the shade of the yellow ring of the roundel and its thought it was painted yellow for visibility trials. P1272 went missing whilst on a bombing raid to Hamburg on 1 December 1941 when with 455 Sq

Checking files on the other one