Green/brown to Green/grey.

Ah nice to know it wasn’t just a figment of my imagination.

I’m glad I asked the original question now. The replies have thrown up far more information and generated far more interest than I ever expected. Strangely enough I seem to have memories of Olive green/ Earth on some of the Army Air Corps Scout helicopters when they were first introduced. Probably brain fade though.

No, your brain is fine! Army Air Corps helicopters followed their fixed wing (Auster) equivalents in being Dark Green/Dark Earth until the early 70s-ish, when they started going green/black, before going green/grey in the 80s. Beavers were the same, although I don’t think any of the remaining ones went green/grey before withdrawal.

Regarding the FAA, the Admiralty changed the orders mid-war (1942 sticks in my mind, but I’d need to check) so that even second line types based on shore were Temperate Sea Scheme, but with yellow undersides.

The other thing to remember about the switch from Green/Earth to Green/Ocean grey is that it was primarily designed to improve concealment at the higher levels the RAF found themselves fighting at in 1941. Not so relevant to Night bombers whose primary purpose for upper surface camouflage was to break up their image when dispersed.

Similar reasons traing types and types such as Austers remained in Green/Earth – they didn’t operate at higher levels.

Presumably because they spent most of their service lives outside hangars so ground concealment was more important.

Was there a particular reason that Bomber Command stayed with green/brown for the Lancaster’s and Halifax’s? Would it have been that as most operations by heavies were at night there was little point in changing?

I’m glad I asked the original question now. The replies have thrown up far more information and generated far more interest than I ever expected. Strangely enough I seem to have memories of Olive green/ Earth on some of the Army Air Corps Scout helicopters when they were first introduced. Probably brain fade though.

The FAA used their version of green/grey (the Temperate Sea Scheme) as described above) from prewar, for aircraft intended to be operated from ships. If a Skua did carry the green/brown (Temperate Land Scheme) then it was contrary to the norm. The FAA did use green/brown (the Temperate Land Scheme) on aircraft intended for permanent operation from land bases. The FAA did not change their scheme when the RAF changed their fighters from TLS to the Day Fighter Scheme. Changes to roundels would have followed the RAF, given a slight delay for the issue of an Admiralty order.

The Army was specific that when altering colour schemes, this was not to be carried out until repainting was required anyway. Despite this, there is the suggestion/likelihood that the more house-proud units would not permit a mish-mash of colour schemes on their fighting vehicles. However, the RAF would normally require such painting to be immediate for front-line units, because the colour scheme was seen not just as camouflage but also as an identity guide. You will not see any photos of aircraft from the same unit in different colours – OCUs and the like aside. (As always with such sweeping statements, photographic proof of the contrary welcomed!)

They didn’t, they had their own schemes

Understood it is not an RAF thing, but at least one of the Skua’s that sank the Konigsberg in Bergen was in a green/brown scheme, training and support squadrons used former front line aircraft with green/brown upper surfaces (Rocs, Sharks, Nimrods and Ospreys) in the very early part of the war. There was a range of colour schemes and markings used at first, then it was tidied up approximately mid 1941; ok, there were large numbers of new aircraft being built to specifications that would involve a single, standardised scheme (ignoring A and B schemes, I am talking whether the tail was camo’d or painted the same as the underside, where the line between the upper camo and the undersurface met, that sort of thing) and, of course, the fact that if intercepting aircraft found something flying that they didn’t recognise and looked strangely colour-schemed they might be inclined to shoot it down. So it would be in the Fleet Air Arm’s interest to adopt something not so distant from that used by the RAF – the usual two greys scheme (dark slate and extra dark sea) appearing to the unknowing as green and grey anyway – so the national and squadron markings needed to be recognisably similar and the timing looks like it would have been influenced by what the RAF were doing.

So if my knowledge of the Spitfire is correct the change would have been introduced at about the same time as the Mk V? One of the things that inspired me to post the question is that a local garage has one of the fibreglass models on the roof which bears features of the MkIX i.e identical fairings for the radiator and oil cooler, 6 exhaust stubs either side yet it is painted in Green and Brown. It’s not as if they are even the correct green and brown. The green looks almost emerald rather than the more olive shade that would be correct and the brown looks like a sort of Hazel nut brown not the dusty earth colour we are familiar with.

Interested in where the Fleet Air Arm came in with this change…?

They didn’t, they had their own schemes

10, 11 & 12 Groups were to do the changeover with immediate effect, with the following Groups, in this order, as stocks of paint came available: 13 – 14 – 9 – 82 & 81
The order for the new design roundels was issued on 30-4-42.

Interested in where the Fleet Air Arm came in with this change…?

Thanks folks, I knew I could rely on this forum to provide an answer. I would have thought it would have been a gradual thing too. Maybe when it was given a major overhaul (unlikely as most combat aircraft of the period didn’t last long enough for that) or major repair job. Otherwise it would have occurred when a machine was destroyed and its replacement turned in the new colour scheme. What was the purpose of the yellow leading edges? I wouldn’t have thought it was as an aid to recognising friendly machines as the area involved hardly seems large enough to be readily visible.

10, 11 & 12 Groups were to do the changeover with immediate effect, with the following Groups, in this order, as stocks of paint came available: 13 – 14 – 9 – 82 & 81
The order for the new design roundels was issued on 30-4-42.

Was there a mass, almost overnight re painting, or was it done on a natural wastage basis with new aircraft in the grey green scheme gradually replacing the older scheme?

‘

I’d be greatly surprised if it wasn’t done gradually, as that seems to (also) be the case with what we nowadays know as ‘Type A.1’ & ‘Type C.1’ fuselage roundels
(& their associated fin-flashes)

I was looking at a Ventura picture last night taken AFTER it had force-landed & it’s wheels had sunk into a salty crust layer
(edge of the desert ?)

The sortie which put it in that predicament was flown on the 3rd December 1942

Yet it was still emblazoned with it’s earlier, older (what we nowadays call ‘Type A.1’) roundel & flashes.

(the newer, less conspicuous ‘Type C.1’ roundels & fin-flashes first came in around spring 1942 onwards…)

So, by directive, those markings were already ‘old hat’ when the photo’ was taken between Dec’ 1942 & January 1943
(at least eight months ‘out of date’ !)

Was there a mass, almost overnight re painting, or was it done on a natural wastage basis with new aircraft in the grey green scheme gradually replacing the older scheme?

The order was to take effect from 15-8-41, but wasn’t sent out until the 21st. The yellow leading edge stripe was introduced by the same order.

Mike, checking through my copy of M J F Bowyer’s ‘Fighting Colours’, he indicates, in Chapter Six, that experiments with a grey scheme started in late May 1941, with three Hurricanes of 56 Sqn at Duxford.

A little later in the same chapter he notes that the final grey/green scheme was introduced by Fighter Command on 21 August 1941.

Hope that helps.