Lancaster pilot question

Thanks for that Snoopy7422 that confirms what I put in Post 13 paragraph c). It’s good to have someone backing that up.

That’s strange then that no mention is made of extra Nav/Radar operators. That’s going to make it hard to find if and when the change over to a dedicated H2S operator was made at any particular time. I wouldn’t think they were trying to keep it a secret as all the ORBs for my father’s tour of duty with 101 show his 8 man crew so you would think they would show the same when a H2S operator was with a squadron’s aircraft.

I know the ‘Fishpond’ indicator that detected enemy fighters attacking from below and behind was fitted in the Radio Operators position and that interfaced with the H2S system. Also the later gyro-controlled H2S was linked to the bombsight computer giving the capability of blind bombing with some accuracy. My father had Gee and H2S at his Nav position but I can only see mention of Gee, DR Comp, API, Camera heater and IFF in his Nav logs and nothing about H2S.

These are excerpts from his logs of a raid on Berlin on 2 Dec 1943 in DV302 H-Harry, one of the “Ton-Up” Lancs.

Aircraft Up @ 16:57 Aircraft Down @ 00:27

Bomb load :- 1 x 4,000lb.HC. 1200 x 4lb (90x) IB. 48 x 30lb. IB.

Bombs dropped on ETA at 21:22 hours from 20,000ft, heading 276M at IAS 160. One cone and scattered S/L in target area.

“We were twenty miles south of track when the route markers went down near Hanover and we had to go through the Hanover Flak and searchlights. We lost time there, with weaving and with navigational problems, and reached the Berlin area thirty minutes after the end of the proper time. We saw a few lights and activity on the ground but not enough to identify it as the target. We flew on and I took two astro shots; these showed us to be well beyond Berlin. We came back and eventually bombed the activity we had seen earlier, but more than an hour late. The navigation officer later back-plotted my results and said that we had bombed at Cottbus, fifty miles south-east of Berlin.
We came back by guess and by God and came out over Antwerp, a hundred miles south of the proper route. We landed at Bradwell Bay. We had plenty of fuel left and could have got home, but we had a few Flak holes and we were tired.”

Diary entry :-

“Briefing. Finished flight plan. All ok. Met W/V U/S!! Didn’t get to the Big City. NO speed & petrol going like water. Landed at 00:30 am at Bradwell Bay. Supper egg & spam, tea. Bed with sheets about 3 am. Up again at 09:15 crew bus to Mess!!! Went out to kite. Brought a lot of incendiaries back also flak holes, one in fin & rudder & one through both outer spinners. Soup, chips & fish; pear & semolina; cup of milk. Reading in Mess. Went out & put all nav. kit together.”

Many aircraft were late on target & the winds that night had caused many to end up well to the south. A “few” Flak holes actually turned out to be 23 and the unreleased incendiaries were hung up in the bomb bay. After repairs Lancaster DV 302 “H” went on to do 121 operational sorties and was scrapped in January 1947.

P2.

This is not my area of knowledge, but I just like to make an observation with regard to Lanc’s being a single-pilot operation. As related to me by a friend who did several tours on Lancs;- Strictly, it’s true, single pilot. However, when new crews arrived on a squadron, the new pilot was sent off on an op’ – at least once with an experienced crew – as what was termed ‘Second Dickie’ to prepare him for the ordeal to come. Doubtful the pilot was experienced, but with BC’s losses being very often so high and several a/c possibly being lost on any given op’, then at any one time, it was quite likely that several pilots would be along for the ride, and it’s inevitable that their services would have been called-upon at times. Well-known, but I just thought I’d mention it. S.

I understand what you are saying, but the Squadron ORBs for those two squadrons don’t list extra crew to operate H2S. Nor has it been mentioned in books like “The Bombers Eye”. And later on, when made available to the main force, there was only the one navigator.

I’m interested to see where/when this extra navigator was introduced and in which squadrons. Like I said in the earlier post, at its introduction to the Pathfinders, and its use in the main force didn’t require one.

Hi Greg

I’m sorry but I am more clued up on ABC as this was fitted to my father’s aircraft albeit he was a Nav not a Special WOP so worked mainly with Oboe and Gee. H2S started being used in early 1943 and was first fitted to Halifax and Stirling bombers but soon spread throughout Bomber Command. The Pathfinder squadrons were especially reliant on it’s services and had the extra operator to optimise it’s use which left to Nav free to do his work. The Americans also used a version as they needed the means to Bomb Through Overcast (BTO) on their daylight raids. This shows how limited they were in their Ops until it was installed.

http://www.482nd.org/radar

Hi MindOverMatter,

Do you know when this extra operator for H2S was used, and what squadrons?
I probably spend a bit too much time reading up on the navigation side of things, but I’ve not seen it mentioned before.
Obviously when used in the main force, H2S was operated by the existing navigator, and in the early H2S raids that I’ve looked at, an extra navigator wasn’t carried.

regards,
Greg

hampden98 you are right a Lancaster crew was usually 7 consisting of Pilot, a Flying Engineer, a Bomb aimer, a Navigator, a Wireless operator, and two Air Gunners however some crews were increased to 8 for one of the following reasons:-

a) The crew was attached to the Pathfinder’s and had an extra Navigator/Radar Operator on board, who operated the H2S blind bombing radar.

b) The crew was attached to a Radio Counter Measure (RCM) Squadron and/or was operating an aircraft equipped with Airborne Cigar (ABC). In the middle of 1943 the aircraft in 101 Squadron were fitted with ABC consisting of three large aerials, two sticking out of the top of the fuselage and one under the bomb aimer’s position. To operate this as well as the ordinary Wireless Operator (WOP) these aircraft carried a German-speaking Special Wireless Operator on board and they were used to scan for German night-fighter radio frequencies. Once located he would prevent information being transmitted by German ground controllers to the night-fighters by activating one of several jamming transmitters. 101 suffered high losses as they were called on to send aircraft on every major raid and they had to circle the target area after their bombing run until the raid was over then head home.

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c) All new pilots were required to fly one or two flights with an experienced pilot and crew in order to familiarise them with what to expect on operations over enemy territory. They would sit in the F/Engineer’s flip down chair. When the F/Engineer needed his chair back the second pilot would stand behind the pilot or sit on the main spar. Sometimes the Station Commander, who would be a trained pilot, would tag along for the ride.

Other possible extra personnel could be War Correspondents, observers and additional camera operators.

Why did some Lancasters carry more than 7 crew?
In Jack Curries book on Maillie De Camp (excuse the spelling) it shows some losses as having 10 or 11 crew?
Were these special, Pathfinder or special Ops Lancs of some sort?

Thanks MindoverMatter, So a jack of all trades then!
Just thinking does that mean ‘Just Jane’ will have to have dual controls fitted as she is going to be airworthy?
Will be a shame it will loose all its originality!

The doubling up of jobs was common in most aircraft in wartime and not limited to just having a spare bod to take over as pilot but was throughout the crew. Although my father was a navigator in Lancasters he also turned his hand to being pilot and rear gunner in both Lancasters and Wellingtons. This was with 30 O.T.U. after his first tour of duty with 101 Squadron where he had a go in the rear turret.

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As 101 Squadron was heavily involved with Radio Counter Measures (R.C.M.) it followed on that he received further training on Radar at Topcliffe with 1659 H.C.U. prior to his second tour as a navigator with 199 Squadron flying a Halifax out of North Creake on R.C.M. operations right up to V.E. day 8th May 1945.

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Sorry to interrupt your work:D

Thanks for the link interesting read, Yep you were spot on:applause:

See what you started?

I’m supposed to be working and instead I have been looking for information on the HCU. It seems I was right, their Lancasters were fitted with the dual controls.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/69/a7798369.shtml

Moggy

Few or no operational wartime Lancasters were fitted with the dual control adaptation. I can’t be specific about the HCU machines.

The simple reason was that it was inefficient to lose two trained pilots when the aircraft were shot down / crashed.

Most pilots tried to train their flight engineer to land the aircraft in an emergency.

Moggy

PS: It’s dual, not duel

Sorry about that, Yes I did read that some crew where crossed trained and it was only Bomber Command that adopted single pilot operation dose make sense as you say Moggy why loose two pilots.

Many thanks all.

I believe that all Lancasters were capable of having dual controls fitted but during the war non ever did so for operational reasons as already discussed.

PS: It’s dual, not duel

You’ve not flown with students obviously 😉

My Grandad’s skipper gave all the crew some basic instruction on how to handle the aircraft, he said he flew the aircraft on a couple of occasions while on training flights.

Few or no operational wartime Lancasters were fitted with the dual control adaptation. I can’t be specific about the HCU machines.

The simple reason was that it was inefficient to lose two trained pilots when the aircraft were shot down / crashed.

Most pilots tried to train their flight engineer to land the aircraft in an emergency.

Moggy

PS: It’s dual, not duel

I read i think on the facebook page that there is only 12 pilots in the world who can fly the Lancaster, how old are they like the youngest?

May need a few more if Just Jane makes it up.