Hats off to John Romain, 109 dead stick landing at headcorn.

“…as long as proper airspeed is maintained…” What, in the Flare?

Kenneth is correct in stating that you need to approach with the correct airspeed and maintain this until the flare. While flaring the airspeed will decrease, so in that regard you might have a point, but when approaching from a glide with the engine stopped or at idle, you aim to maintain your glide speed until the very last second. If you misjudge and start flaring too soon, you may find yourself approaching a stall or at least a descent with increasing vertical speed, without any option left. Your only way of increasing the speed at such a point would be to lower the nose but you may have run out of room (height-wise and speed-wise) for that as you need to trade altitude to get more speed.

I’m sure that the idle thrust of a Merlin is quite signficant at the propeller. I’m however referring the airflow some 7-8m behind the propeller in that situation. But what you are then saying is that e.g a Buchon or a Spitfire becomes uncontrollable in the flare with the engine off? And that you could lift its tail on the ground with forward stick and an idling engine?

As regards flaring, if you start the flare with too high an airspeed, the aircraft could start climbing (depending on the amount of excess speed and how aggressively it is done). If the speed is too low, the aircraft could stall immediately and drop like a stone. So yes, there is such a thing as a proper speed at which to start flaring.

I may only be flying Cessnas and Tecnams, but that’s the way it works with them. What do you fly?

That would be my interpretation as well.

For want of an angle of attack indicator, any aircraft is perfectly flyable without power as long as proper airspeed is maintained (e.g best glide). Propeller airflow over control surfaces is not required, certainly not when touching down (where any airflow from the idling propeller would have negligable effect).

Not entirely true, and in fact, misleading.

The ‘negligible airflow’ from a 1600hp RR Merlin is quite noticeable, even at idle.

“…as long as proper airspeed is maintained…” What, in the Flare?

Talk to the Shuttleworth boys about your statement!

JR deserves some form of recognition for the consummate professionalism in which he executed that return to the field. Being downwind of the airfield at the point of power loss may have simplified the recovery, but it is perhaps again credit to JR that the planning of the routine kept the a/c within safe glide range of the strip. Watching that clip shows the high levels of energy maintained throughout the routine giving JR the greatest flexibility to gain height, maintain airspeed and return safely to the strip. Note that at the end of the roll out he still had the forethought to steer clear of the runway using the remaining inertia.

TOP PILOT.

Any idea if the Buchon has a spare engine to fit in it or is it now grounded until that one is repaired–if it is repairable.

Who cares whether it threw a rod or a fit or whether it was running or walking or coughing and farting.

A: Anyone who wants to reduce the risk of the same thing happening again.

Pete

That would be my interpretation as well.

For want of an angle of attack indicator, any aircraft is perfectly flyable without power as long as proper airspeed is maintained (e.g best glide). Propeller airflow over control surfaces is not required, certainly not when touching down (where any airflow from the idling propeller would have negligable effect).

Wikipedia gives this definition of a dead stick landing….

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadstick_landing

How does this then in your opinion add up with most single engine propeller aircraft touching down with the throttle at idle, including many WW2 fighter aircraft?

Hi Kenneth,

Even at idle there is still airflow from the prop, eg, when doing stall turns I would throttle back to idle and kick the rudder when forward motion ceased, there was enough waft from the prop to turn the aircraft. I would also suggest that the approach would be made with some power applied to control altitude and chopping the throttle before flaring. May I ask your opinion re the meaning of “dead stick” ? Do you think the loss of gyroscopic effect would have any effect on control ?

Steve

I am not a pilot but i guess it would be as much to do with the luxury of being able to open the throttle again to go round if needed or as in this case that was not an option as no usable power available.

How does this then in your opinion add up with most single engine propeller aircraft touching down with the throttle at idle, including many WW2 fighter aircraft?

So are you trying to say that you need airflow from the propeller over the rudder and elevator in order to be able to land an aircraft without problems?

Within the context of this thread it would certainly reduce the control response wrt rudder & elevator. Obviously gliders & jets are designed taking the lack of propeller into account.

IIRC the term was originally coined circa WW1 when props were made of wood – ie a stopped prop was just a “dead stick” but the meaning changed over the years partly for the reasons I have given and now even a jet making an engine off landing would still be referred to as a “dead stick landing”.

Were there any emergency services on site?
Makes you realise just how quickly things go from normal and ok to a variation of just how deep the poo could become.Terrific flying and landing,benefiting from flying the plane quite alot and being in the right place to make a landing.

Because there is no airflow over the rudder / elevator from the propeller when the engine is stopped thus reducing the control authority and making the stick feel “dead”. Not a problem if you have enough airspeed but when you slow down to land…..

So are you trying to say that you need airflow from the propeller over the rudder and elevator in order to be able to land an aircraft without problems?

That is an impressive bit of flying. I hope JR will write a report on it for the warbird aircrew out there. In modern military aviation, such reports share experience that can (obviously) help others learn.

Nice landing.

Suggest you get your ears checked….

What does that mean..? It was as said vertical when it failed he then rolls out of it and declares a mayday.

Bloody hell! That round of applause was well deserved!

I don’t think this has been posted so far?

http://youtu.be/c1sUFWfti7E

Now that looked effortless and text book – and you know it was very far from that! The donkey died over the field going up hill – evenso Fresh pants on landing then!

Tea and more medals back in the mess.

I had a radio failure over Stafford and came back to HG none radio and landed with a shirt wetter than a wet thing and in need of a change of nappy from nanny!

Still in awe of the skill from Mr R!

Thanks Slipstream (#50). I thought the question had got lost. Your explanation much appreciated.