Squadron leader J. Dennant

Hi all

Just came across this old thread in researching my partner’s family tree. It turns out that she is a third cousin of Sq Ldr Dennant (her mum’s maiden name). I don’t think her family will be aware of the link at all.

There is information about his DSO at https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/36975/supplement/1324/data.pdf

Sadly, he was killed in an air accident off Cornwall in 1946: https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=160799

From the CWGC website: https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/1536446/dennant,-james-edwa…

Hope that helps in regard to the tunic!

Regards

SJH

Andy,

no offence taken, i can assure you. other peoples opinions are always welcome.
For the time being anyway, my ‘bubble’ is burst, pending perhaps further investigation.
one things for certain, you won’t catch me selling it all badged up as Dennant’s tunic at Shoreham in March !

Jules

Jules

Thanks for posting the photos and story of the tunic and letting us comment.

I’m sorry that my comments in respect of tunic were rather negative – albeit that I meant them in a positive way and simply posted things as I saw them.

However, I’m sure we have both known each other long enough for you to know that!

I own the tunic of a Liberator navigator, Denis Boissier — the bloke on the right of Gordon Clegg in a photo I recently posted in the “Wing Commander Gordon Clegg” thread. The tailor’s label reads “F/LT BOISSIER” — with rank. Now, probably when this tunic was made (it is also dated 1946 on the label), Denis knew he’d be out of the RAF shortly, and with no further promotions coming, but this may also be an example of a tailor who routinely added the rank and the name of the customer. Or did Denis ink it himself?? No way of knowing…

Jules

Thanks for posting the photos and story of the tunic and letting us comment.

I’m sorry that my comments in respect of tunic were rather negative – albeit that I meant them in a positive way and simply posted things as I saw them.

However, I’m sure we have both known each other long enough for you to know that!

Lastly, re “Missing the point” & written by “the Tailor, known fact”
To be blunt, it’s more than a little late to now be bringing new information to the discussion. It would have been both courteous and helpful, to put forward full info at the outset of a request. Though how the Tailor’s writing can be a “known fact” now needs to be explained. Further, what would any new officer owner, with some other man’s name written in his tunic, do? Leave it that way? How likely is that?

Don,

I really don’t feel I have with held any info, this whole thread has certainly been interesting, I have collected RFC and RAF uniforms for over 30 years, I have many ww2 raf uniforms direct from the families, at least two of these, we’re second hand to the officer, as replacements during the war.
In reply to the question of the tailors label, again in my experience, it was the tailor who filled in who the Tunic was for…..
If I really wanted to prove this tunic, I could get the ink dated ?

As a matter of interest with miss spelled names, I once owned a 1930 pattern sidcot suit, painted in the inside was ‘ J Loudon’ That turned out to be Johnny Loudon a Defiant pilot, but his initials were M J Loudon.

Obviously, I would like to prove the provenance of this tunic, not for its value, but to appreciate what it’s owner did for us all those years ago, and to keep his memory alive, if nothing else, this thread has certainly made a few of us recognise what this brave officer achieved and if even for this short time, he has been remembered.

Jules

I’ve even seen medals borrowed to sit on a coffin, as the recipients hadn’t come through when he died.

I am aware the exchange or even borrowing of kit and uniform happened, especially in wartime. Frequently it caused problems with the identification of casualties, in fact. Including casualties who have been found post-war.

However, and with all due respect to Jules, and even having regard to the explanation you offer, and in the unlikely event that he sold it to you, Tony T, I would give it a miss if you subsequently offered it to me.

I have seen several similar tunics in the last eighteen months or so. Mostly, they have a common thread; a name that matches no known officer and a combination of impossible/unlikely medal combinations and/or brevets.

Sadly, this has all of those hallmarks – even if its source was impeccable and trusted. For me, I’d say the similarities are too similar to other phoney tunics that have been offered – even if refusing it meant I was turning down something wholly original, unusual and (as yet) unexplained.

The possibility suggested by Tony T at #26 seems pretty remote to me. We have to assume that it was sold to a Pilot Officer who (a) didn’t delete the original owner’s name. and, (b) had a very odd medal combination given his Air Bomber’s qualification. The latter seems hardly credible to me. We also need to bear in mind that if it was sold after Dennant’s death to another officer this would have to have been after August 1946. It all seems very unlikely. Even less likely that Dennant, whilst still living, sold one of his old jackets to a Pilot Officer.

Depends if he replaced it, it could have been sold during his life if he’d outgrown etc, I had combat kit issued that had previous owners names in them, I never bothered remarking it, nor did I cross them out, I gave all my shirts, coats, jacket and flying boots to an ex workmate, also my overalls etc and all of my KD, what he didn’t use he could exchange for new, it’s what happens in the military all the time, might sound odd if you haven’t experienced it.

The possibility suggested by Tony T at #26 seems pretty remote to me. We have to assume that it was sold to a Pilot Officer who (a) didn’t delete the original owner’s name. and, (b) had a very odd medal combination given his Air Bomber’s qualification. The latter seems hardly credible to me. We also need to bear in mind that if it was sold after Dennant’s death to another officer this would have to have been after August 1946. It all seems very unlikely. Even less likely that Dennant, whilst still living, sold one of his old jackets to a Pilot Officer.

If it was
S/Ldr JE Dennant DSO DFC

It may have been sold at his demise, and the monies would go to the widow.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=80366.0;nowap

Yes, I think I can see what you mean. Perhaps Jules can give us a close-up shot?

However, I still think there is something odd here.

It certainly doesn’t seem to be the J E Dennant it was supposed it might be. And an absence of any other J Dennants in the Air Force lists etc rings another alarm bell, really.

I agree, fakers don’t fake things down. However, if the Pathfinder badge HAS been removed, then why is this chap not shown in lists of those who might qualify for the badge? Additionally, I’d expect to be seeing Air Crew Europe and 39/45 Star at least!

My guess(es)?

This was originally a non General Duties branch tunic, un-named, and with the Defence and War Medal only. It may or may not have been, at the time the brevet was added, of Sqn Ldr rank. Equally, it could have been that the faker simply had insufficient knowledge (or research skills) to know the difference between a Plt Off and Sqn Ldr, or it could equally be that the purchaser of this faked tunic later removed the Pathfinder badge (mostly they are fake, anyway) and, for some reason, the Sqn Ldr tapes.

Either way, I am just not convinced about this tunic.

As to your quoted comment about medal ribbons, apologies but I deleted that from my post when I realised I was having a senior moment – so it won’t make much sense to some! Thought I was looking at Defence and 39/45 Star rather than Defence and War.

However, I think Don Clark’s comments at #6 are highly relevant. If somebody can show who this unknown J Dennant was then it might be more convincing. But not a lot more, frankly.

Sorry, Jules. My money is on this being wrong. 🙁

Blowing the image up you can make out 2 lines on the left side sleeve?, but one would hope the tailor would be skilled enough to make sure they didnt show.

But I’d have thought he’s get his medal ribbons in the right order, at least!

But then again, depends if the tailor was knowledgable, trust me when i say they variances of uniform even in my time beggared belief.

Andy, It is quite possible his uniform was passed on or purchased by another officer, it still goes onto this day, I gave some of my uniforms to a mate still serving when i left and he had them rebadged.. Indeed just go on pprune and see the amount of Officers after secondhand RAF Officers greatcoats, the fact that it has been deranked to a pilot officer (who are not exactly the greatest paid rank) makes it all the more plausible, if you are going to “fake” a uniform, you do not fake it down in value, but up, pathfinder and wings being an example here. Nothing suspicious about it in my mind, it will be genuine, just a shame you will not be able to trace the second owner.

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/516725-old-uniforms.html

OAB, I confess to only owning 2nd and 3rd as second hand. The first, I went in to the anteroom at ISK when this old pilot said ‘you need a new No 1’ and sold me his before he retired. My next one, bought when I took up my final appointment was from my predecessor for a £15 donation to charity.

My raincoat was much travelled. I inherited it from a chum who was leaving (he’d got it from someone else) as I would not be seen dead in that dreadful abortion with the brooch rank tabs. It was slightly too big but – what the hell. I passed it on to another grateful user when I PVRd in 93. He’s now air rank so I hope that he either has it still or has passed it on to yet another grateful user

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/491842-officers-greatcoat.html

See nothing untoward, simply saving a bit of dosh and helping out a fellow collegue

I’m not convinced, Julian.

I have seen at least two other ‘odd’ RAF tunics like this turn up from boot fairs and traders who have no knowledge and are not trying to fool anybody. I have concluded that, very often, people who get stung by fakes tend to get rid of them at other outlets where the provenance won’t be challenged and where they can recoup at least some of their outlay.

I think the wrong rank for this tunic (Sqn Ldr but should be Plt Off) is a major give-away, and if it is our man J E Dennant then why re-wing it as Air Bomber and with the wrong medal ribbons?

If you look at ‘faked’ tunics from a known purveyor of such goods they invariably have Pathfinder badges. Although yours does not, it has all the hallmarks of having had them.

Honestly, Jules, I don’t think this is at all what it pretends to be. So many elements don’t make sense.

Lots of stuff just like this in my ‘Detecting The Fakes – RAF Collectibles’ book that is a long term project.

No No, i think your missing the point………….. it was not sold as Sqd Ldr J.E.Dennant’s tunic at all, just an old RAF tunic, no mention of the name inside, which is why i only bid £40 and won it !

the seller had no interest nor mentioned about the inside label, nor did i until it arrived.

secondly, it was never the Officer that wrote the name inside, but the Tailor, this is a known fact, and i’m presuming that the 141 is simply a tailors mark.

yes, its odd that its a P/O rank when the Officer was by then a S/Ldr…………..
i guess we will knever know, but one things for certain, it was not sold to fool anyone, nither do i believe the name in the tunic is fake ?
why would someone fake that name and badge it as an Air Bomber ?

Jules

I have to say that somebody with very similar handwriting seemed to have written the names of various other personnel etc on other pieces of period kit, and from both World Wars.

Indeed so, Andy, to the extent that I now don’t risk buying, in case I buy a pup. And I suppose that as the forgeries become better the task of verification becomes more difficult.

Sadly, the volume of blatantly forged material is staggering. And increasing, I’d say.

I think one should be exceptionally wary of items that have a historically interesting ‘provenance’.

Every day E-Bay is loaded with material that has a doubtful history, as seen (frequently) in the forum’s E-Bay thread.

Another thread which after such interesting reading, sadly warns those of us with little expertise to be ultra wary of what we find and what we buy.:(

SWO please.