RAF B52s

David,
You hit the nail on the head…many people were employed as a result of the ADV. The GR1/4 was a superb aircraft – optimised for its low level interdiction role, though the central european mission did leave it a little short on legs compared to, say, the F111. The F3 on the other hand was a massively compromised fighter that arrived without a functioning radar, no auto wing sweep and a severely curtailed operating ceiling compared to the Lightning/F4 (even Hawk….). At the very end of its service life the F3 finally had a credible capability with ASRAAM/AMRAAM (though not a perfect integration…) but still suffered from a sub-optimal airframe. It was very fast at low level…but then it was designed as a low level bomber. Fighting an F3 after fighting a Typhoon was always a bit of an anti-climax…Yes it was wrapped up in Al Yamamah, but the Saudis bought F15Cs too. As a bomber killer the F3 served a purpose and, on its day, with JTIDS/AMRAAM/ASRAAM could spring a surprise, but it was never a ‘pure’ fighter and the F14 would have fulfilled the requirement better (albeit we’d have struggled with the TF30 engine too….).

No, the Brits would have simply substituted the Spey (both were early 1960s engines).

The Spey was slightly smaller than the TF30 and had similar airflow requirements and identical thrust (the F-14’s TF30-412 compared to the Phantom FG.1’s Spey Mk.201), so there would be no repeat of the Phantom fiasco.

TF30-412: thrust 12,350 lb (20,900 lb reheat), weight 3,969 lb, length 125” engine/235.5” with tailpipe & reheat module, diameter 42.06” (50.90” over reheat module), SFC .63/2.78 in reheat, Airflow: ~240 lb/sec

Spey Mk.201: thrust 12,250 lb (20,515 lb reheat), weight 4,093 lb, length 205” with tailpipe & reheat module, diameter 37.5” (44” over reheat module), SFC .63/1.95 in reheat, Airflow: 210 lb/sec

Of course, they could fit reheat to the RR/Allison TF41 (improved Spey) of the A-7D/E, which would give 15,000 lb thrust dry and likely ~24,000-25,000 lb with reheat.

Living just across the Taw estuary from what was then RAF Chivenor I came home from work around 12 years ago to hear from my young son that he’d seen an F117 displaying over Chivenor. I told him he must be mistaken but the following week the local weekly rag – North Devon Journal – had an article and pics about an ex Chivenor based pilot who’d made a return visit flying an F117 whilst on an exchange trip with the USAF.

David,
You hit the nail on the head…many people were employed as a result of the ADV. The GR1/4 was a superb aircraft – optimised for its low level interdiction role, though the central european mission did leave it a little short on legs compared to, say, the F111. The F3 on the other hand was a massively compromised fighter that arrived without a functioning radar, no auto wing sweep and a severely curtailed operating ceiling compared to the Lightning/F4 (even Hawk….). At the very end of its service life the F3 finally had a credible capability with ASRAAM/AMRAAM (though not a perfect integration…) but still suffered from a sub-optimal airframe. It was very fast at low level…but then it was designed as a low level bomber. Fighting an F3 after fighting a Typhoon was always a bit of an anti-climax…Yes it was wrapped up in Al Yamamah, but the Saudis bought F15Cs too. As a bomber killer the F3 served a purpose and, on its day, with JTIDS/AMRAAM/ASRAAM could spring a surprise, but it was never a ‘pure’ fighter and the F14 would have fulfilled the requirement better (albeit we’d have struggled with the TF30 engine too….).

I don’t know about during the Gulf War but I remember reading about an RAF pilot on exchange with the USAF flying them and it was remarked that the RAF were the only foreign pilots the USAF allowed to fly the 117, not sure how true that statement was though.

I was actually trying to debunk the myth and play devil’s advocate at the same time, Moggy. Looks like I failed on both counts!

Doh! :stupid:

Why anyone would believe they were lent to the R.A.F. is beyond me.

That’s what they want you to think!!![/TINFOILHAT]

I was actually trying to debunk the myth and play devil’s advocate at the same time, Moggy. Looks like I failed on both counts!

I can assure you it was the USAF flying the B-52s, Went down to see them at the time and the only English voice I heard were mine and the other spotters! Why anyone would believe they were lent to the R.A.F. is beyond me.

Phill

:eagerness:

I can assure you it was the USAF flying the B-52s, Went down to see them at the time and the only English voice I heard were mine and the other spotters! Why anyone would believe they were lent to the R.A.F. is beyond me.

Phill

‘The ADV was a massive con trick pulled by BAES’ -bit of a sweeping statement! Part of the largest defence export contract in U.K history! There are a great many people still employed as part of the overall
GR.1/F.3 package – whilst possibly not the greatest fighter in British history I have heard the occasional complimentary word said about the F.3 !

The voices doing the R/T were definitely American but that could have been deliberate too.

Come on, let’s not start silly internet myths running.

If, for any reason, the RAF had borrowed B52s we’d know about it. We were involved there, there was no need for any subterfuge.

The idiot author of the article the OP referred to got it wrong. End of.

Moggy

I used to listen on HF to the B-52s coming back from Iraq. They used deliberately non-aggressive call signs such as Foster 15. The voices doing the R/T were definitely American but that could have been deliberate too. I can’t really imagine that they were RAF-flown though. I remember one aircraft repeatedly calling ‘Black Knight Provisional’ with no response. I thought it strange that I could hear them loud and clear on my £100 set from Tandy! Anyone know if Black Knight Provisional was at Fairford?

The F14 was rumoured to be the preferred choice of the RAF for the long range interceptor role. The AWG-9/AIM-54 combo would have been very potent – decidedly more so than the ADV/F2/F3 we ended up with. The RAF also looked at the F15. Eventually, it became a huge political hot potato and (allegedly) RAF personnel were banned from being seen near F14/F15s at airshows. The ADV was a massive con trick pulled by BAES and, to be honest, the cost of it probably exceeded that of the F14. But, it kept jobs and money flowing into the North West….

The R.A.F. exchanged pilot on the F-117 also displayed the aircraft at RIAT…..in formation with the Red Arrows, what a sight that was!

Phill

It’s not uncommon for manufacturers to make desktop models in potential purchasers markings; I’ve seen examples of the F105 and F14 in RAF markings amongst others.

Quite.
I’ve seen a large 1/72nd scale metal C-133 model in RAAF markings. If one was a Phantom fan, it would be fun to collect all the models in all their national markings variations….

I can’t believe anyone ever thought the RAF would buy (or could afford) the F-14. But it would have been quite an asset for countering Soviet bombers coming down from the north.

There were definitely BUFFs at Fairford in 1991…came out of a stall turn solo in a UAS Bulldog and came face to face with one coming back from Iraq….I decided to give way…..

It’s not uncommon for manufacturers to make desktop models in potential purchasers markings; I’ve seen examples of the F105 and F14 in RAF markings amongst others.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]221997[/ATTACH]
I read in a history magazine that during WW2 the RAF operated American B17s but it also stated during the first Gulf War ‘eight Boeing B52 Stratofortress bombers were deployed by the RAF during Operation Desert Storm in 1991.’

I remember something about this, weren’t they stationed at 8 Sqn at Kinloss at the time, where they helped perform the maritime patrol aircraft role with the Avros?

No my mistake I was thinking of the B-52 Love Shack

The USA did offer the Australians some very inexpensive (if not free) B-47s to fulfill their long range bomber mission n the early 60s (they were worried about Sukarno in Indonesia) but I think the Aussies thought they were too old.

It was an optional side offer with the F-111 deal… the B-47s were to immediately replace the RAAF’s Canberras, and would be returned when the RAAF accepted their F-111s. The Australian government wisely decided to just run the Canberras on a bit longer (and then borrowed some F-4s when the F-111s were delayed for 5 years).

I’ve seen desk models of B-58 with RAAF markings but I don’t now if it was a really serious offer.

It was a tentative attempt to keep Australia from holding a competition for their Canberra replacement.

From http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_bombers/b58_11.html

Probably due to its high cost and complexity, the B-58 was never exported to any foreign air forces. However, in 1959-60, there was an attempt to sell a stripped version of the B-58 to the Royal Australian Air Force. The RAAF B-58 was to have had the ability to carry conventional iron bombs on special wing root-mounted pylons. In the event, the RAAF was not very interested, and the project was dropped before any serious discussions could begin.

http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_bombers/b58.html

Note that those pylons are present on the B-58 in the Strategic Air & Space museum (home of one of the Vulcans held by the USAF).

Here are a couple of photos I took on 31 March 2011 (the first was without flash, and my cheap camera didn’t like their lighting… I have a much better one now):

The late Ken wallace flew for SAC and flew B36’s, it has been
common over the years for exchange postings.

From reading his biography and the latest FlyPast (a small plug for our sponsor), Wallis was not an operational B-36 pilot. He was in the States as an exchange armament officer not a full time aircrew member. Being a B-36 AC or co-pilot was a full time position. I’d wager he “flew” a B-36 during a training flight.

Western countries have rarely sold their strategic bombers….aside from the Washingtons, the US (and the UK and France) has kept theirs to themselves. The USA did offer the Australians some very inexpensive (if not free) B-47s to fulfill their long range bomber mission n the early 60s (they were worried about Sukarno in Indonesia) but I think the Aussies thought they were too old. I’ve seen desk models of B-58 with RAAF markings but I don’t now if it was a really serious offer. Also, some ex-SAC FB-111s were supplied to the RAAF to “top up ” their inventory.

3!!!!

Must have seen us coming…

Nothing new there then.