Dayton air show crash, pilot and wing walker tragically killed when Stearman crashed

I agree with Moggy and would like to add my sincere condolances to those left behind in this tragic accident. RIP to those who died.

I personally find the hijacking of this thread marking the death of two people into an “I don’t like airshows” diatribe more than a little distasteful.

Moggy

The point Stepwilk is making – I think – is that most airshow accidents seem to happen when the aircraft is low & slow and the pilot is trying to do something at the edge of the aircraft’s performance envelope. This has been debated on this forum before. Nothing wrong with airshows IMHO but let’s have fly-bys at the right (safe) speed and height.

I have read much of what has been written here and was trying not to respond to the utter crap that as usual after an incident like this has been posted by some. The statement above falls into that catagory, ” lets have fly- bys at the right (safe) speed and height”
Well I’m sure this pilot went out there intending to fly to low and too slow!!! What a stupid thing to say, all displays are flown at safe speeds and heights, that is until something goes wrong, for what ever reason. We are all human and all capable of a mistake, it’s just sometime that the mistake we make is out last.
I can guarantee you one thing, if all the displays at Airshows were simple Flypast at 200 ft you would have no Airshows in no time at all because the general public who make up the majority of the people attending and make it worth while would not come. Step wink, you may not like ” wing walking” displays but I can assure you there are many out ther that do, you will find the Brietling wing walkers are one or the most popular acts on the Airshows circuit, and I can assure you that their display is a well practiced routine that is done with the utmost safety in mind.
You are all intittled to your own opinions but I for one find some of the comments on here quite offensive as will the families of those who have lost there lives
As many have said in incidents like these the media are pure vultures and some of the headlines are utter rubbish, however I find the comments on here from those that should know better just as disgusting.
My thought are with those left behind to grieve, especially Jane’s two sons.

Oh and by the way I have many hrs of experience display flying both Stearman and Tiger Moth with wing walkers on board.

Fair points and thanks for clarifying your earlier remarks.

you did say that airshows are stupid.

Yes, you’re right, and I didn’t make it clear that I meant air shows as presently constituted, filled with “death-defying” acts (and too often they attempt to defy but lose) that, as Nachtjagd says above, fly too low and too close to the edge of the airplane’s (and usually the pilot’s) performance envelope. Probably all started with the inverted ribbon cut, which was a big deal when I started seeing air shows in the late ’60s. (First one I ever attended, at Reading, Pa., a “crazy flying farmer” in a Cub–Dick Schramm–was killed not 100 feet from where I was photographing outside the crowd line.)

Probably the ultimate safe acts are the military teams, who do broad maneuvers designed to -look- scary but that are, of course, actually performances of extreme precision. I’ve never flown with the Blues or Thunderbirds, but I have flown as a back-seater with the Breitling L-39 team, and I was amazed at how comfortable and seemingly safe their maneuvers were.

The point Stepwilk is making – I think – is that most airshow accidents seem to happen when the aircraft is low & slow and the pilot is trying to do something at the edge of the aircraft’s performance envelope. This has been debated on this forum before. Nothing wrong with airshows IMHO but let’s have fly-bys at the right (safe) speed and height.

A terrible accident, although I’m sure that after watching the video, most will come to similar conclusion as to the “probable” cause.
Even though we can’t actually say so on here.

Stepwilk – you did say that airshows are stupid.
However I agree about the media reaction to this sort of tragedy. But surely the finger should be pointed at the media rather than blaming the airshow.

I simply detest the kind of lousy PR these kinds of crashes create. And no, I never said anything about “banning air shows,” I just feel they should avoid the inherently risky acts.
And since I was the owner/driver of a highly modified Porsche 911SC track car until recently, it’s even possible that I understand a bit about motorsport.

Actually I agree.
Having seen the way the media react when someone is killed on your favourite airfield last year, I can tell you it’s like a feeding frenzy and they respect no one.
An attractive young women and her half witted side-kick of a cameraman still probably don’t know how close they came to getting harmed on a dreadful Sunday afternoon. Well, actually they probably do because they must treat so many people with complete contempt that they must have sensed how hated they are by now.
I imagine they have no friends (or concept thereof) so they have no clue to how high emotions run when this sort of thing happens.

Very sad about the lady in Dayton though.

why are you on this forum if you detest aviation?

Having been a pilot since 1967, commercial-licensed since 1970, with thousands of hours in (last count) in 115 types–one of the benefits of having been the Executive Editor of Flying Magazine–I hardly “detest aviation.” I simply detest the kind of lousy PR these kinds of crashes create. And no, I never said anything about “banning air shows,” I just feel they should avoid the inherently risky acts.

And since I was the owner/driver of a highly modified Porsche 911SC track car until recently, it’s even possible that I understand a bit about motorsport.

I’ve never really seen the point of wing-walking, so it’s not something I’ve taken a great interest in. However, I’ve been to enough airshows that I’ve seen quite a lot of it. Am I correct in thinking that, involving the ‘walker’ moving around the aircraft as it rolled, this routine was unusual, maybe even unique (at least since the 1920s)? If so, maybe that tells its own story.

I always find it a very sobering thought that someone has died providing entertainment. As others have noted it happened so quickly that the participants will have suffered little, but for those they left behind the suffering is only just starting. My thoughts are with them.

Well, as you imply, it has been a part of air display entertainment flying for about 80 years….

The lady does seem to have been genuinely wing walking. I wonder what effect that would have on the airflow over the wings, on the ability of the aerofoil to generate lift?

My sympathies go to her two boys, I’m afraid I can have non for people who do such daft things as wing walking.

Regards

Ditto, Yes its sad that she died, but we have to look at the obvious here in that if you ‘choose’ to do a daft thing like this as a job then, im affraid law of averags will catch up eventually.

Wing walking and ‘wing walking’ are two different kettle of fishes. She could have slipped anyhow.

I remember not long ago in the states another guy slipped and died trying to go from a helicopter to a biplane.

I guess this is high risk entertainment with the consequences that go with it.

I may be harsh but its reality and this type of entertainment is not what I would say is part of our hobby/passion.

You mean every aspect of historic aviation would cease because there are no air shows??

No, not every aspect, but the historic flying side would melt into hangars/museums if there was nowhere to (air) display them. A lot of aircraft are funded directly or indirectly by air shows and it would have a knock-on effect throughout the (historic) aircraft industry. Same for new aircraft, where/how would companies show off their latest Military fighter or Airliner to the world?

maybe, every aspect of aviation would suffer because there are no air shows

just my opinion

Baz

RIP

I’ve never really seen the point of wing-walking, so it’s not something I’ve taken a great interest in. However, I’ve been to enough airshows that I’ve seen quite a lot of it. Am I correct in thinking that, involving the ‘walker’ moving around the aircraft as it rolled, this routine was unusual, maybe even unique (at least since the 1920s)? If so, maybe that tells its own story.

I always find it a very sobering thought that someone has died providing entertainment. As others have noted it happened so quickly that the participants will have suffered little, but for those they left behind the suffering is only just starting. My thoughts are with them.

When you combine humans with machines then there will be accidents. You just have to accept that fact and enjoy the sport.
A driver was killed at Le Mans this weekend.
Be thankful for all the accident free air shows we attend each year.

Isle of man TT normally has a couple,The Grand National and other horse riding events have casualties,crikey Fabrice Muamba had a heart attack playing professional football.The people i feel sorry for are the family and friends that are left behind.

When you combine humans with machines then there will be accidents. You just have to accept that fact and enjoy the sport.
A driver was killed at Le Mans this weekend.
Be thankful for all the accident free air shows we attend each year.

You mean every aspect of historic aviation would cease because there are no air shows??

Air show are death waiting to happen.

Here in the U. S., one of the positive effects of the infamous sequestration has been the cancellation of a number of air shows. Good.

What a strange post, without air shows we would have no airworthy historic aeroplanes, no enthusiasts, no Flypast magazine, no Duxford, no forum, no Red Arrows, etc……….just stuff in museums gathering dust.

The lady does seem to have been genuinely wing walking.

That was the thing that struck me after watching the horrific footage. How would the ‘wing walker’ be attached by a wire if she was intending to climb onto the underside of the wing when the aircraft was inverted; and what good would it do if she did ‘fall’? I presumed that she was in fact not attached and this was genuine ‘wing walking’.

A tragedy for those involved.

The lady does seem to have been genuinely wing walking. I wonder what effect that would have on the airflow over the wings, on the ability of the aerofoil to generate lift?

My sympathies go to her two boys, I’m afraid I can have non for people who do such daft things as wing walking.

Regards