Spitfire Questions From a Ignorant Yank…………

Thanks for all the replys they’re very much appreciated. I just finish an article on PO Jerry Smith and his hookless landing on the USS Wasp for Flight Journal magazine. Should be in the upcoming Spitfire special edition or lacking space the following regular edition.

Dear Yank, you might be nearer an answer on Vokes filters than us in blighty. Didn’t Tom Blair have a Smudge made Vokes on his mark V and reverted to a standard filter soon after.

Antoni

Thanks for that.

Re 12

Do you happen to have an ISBN number for author Charles Whiting’s book please?

You can find it here:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Battle-Bulge-Britains-Untold-Story/dp/0750918691/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1370176620&sr=1-3&keywords=charles+whiting

Re 12

Do you happen to have an ISBN number for author Charles Whiting’s book please?

the story my grandfather told was told to both my Dad and me without any prompting (and without either of us having any background knowledge of the subject) was “We took Spitfires to Malta and painted them blue with deck paint”, not a response to the question “When you took those Spitfires to Malta, did you paint them blue, and if so, was it deck paint?”. It was unprompted reminiscence. So I’d say the evidence stacks up quite well.

Eddie, it’s a sad fact of life that any new information can (and will) come up against the brick wall of those who (for whatever reason) don’t want to believe, and it really is best to move on, and tell those who have a genuine interest in discovering any new information, however disturbing it might be. Even if he’d read, and noted down, what was written on the tins, it would make little difference, in some quarters.
My father was in SHAEF H.Q. during 1944/45, and related to me how the Battle of the Bulge was not an all-American affair, as he was able to watch it unfold on the maps, including the troop movements, and (even though he loathed the man personally) was full of praise for Montgomery’s actions. This, of course, was long before Charles Whiting’s book; it would be interesting to see how many have actually read it.

I’m sorry if this offends, but I honestly can’t see how they had the time for this. On this rapid voyage, on a crowded hangar deck under wartime conditions, to repaint 50 Spitfires “several times”? I do feel that no competent engineering officer would have stood for such an abortion anyway. One of the pilots on this mission claims they weren’t repainted at all… So that’s two competing accounts with completely different extremes.

Graham – I know how this stuff works – the least reliable witness is an eyewitness. So there’s no risk of offending.

With that said, the story my grandfather told was told to both my Dad and me without any prompting (and without either of us having any background knowledge of the subject) was “We took Spitfires to Malta and painted them blue with deck paint”, not a response to the question “When you took those Spitfires to Malta, did you paint them blue, and if so, was it deck paint?”. It was unprompted reminiscence.

The classic “U-2” photo, showing a Spitfire in a hastily painted single colour when on Wasp is incontrovertible that some repainting was done.

I saw another account here: http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234937589-malta-spitfire-vs-1942-their-colours-and-markings/?p=1293175 which I’m sure you’ve seen. The interesting point is that there’s reference to some overpainting being done before embarkation in Glasgow – perhaps this was how his recollection of repainting aircraft several times came about.

So I’d say the evidence stacks up quite well.

mark12: I knew that the tropical radiator was supposed to be bigger, but if I’d ever known by how much I’d forgotten. Thanks for the description. Is room for this found inside the wing or is the external shround also one inch deeper?

Logically it must hang lower, if not there would be major plumbing implications.

Mark

Eddie: Had they been painted with USN deck paint, then that certainly would have affected their performance, although perhaps not their handling in the same manner as heavy weights out along the wing. I’m sorry if this offends, but I honestly can’t see how they had the time for this. On this rapid voyage, on a crowded hangar deck under wartime conditions, to repaint 50 Spitfires “several times”? I do feel that no competent engineering officer would have stood for such an abortion anyway. One of the pilots on this mission claims they weren’t repainted at all… So that’s two competing accounts with completely different extremes.

mark12: I knew that the tropical radiator was supposed to be bigger, but if I’d ever known by how much I’d forgotten. Thanks for the description. Is room for this found inside the wing or is the external shround also one inch deeper?

Jack you are a legend,but the opposite from a dumb person.
A link the photo’s are in the public domain. Link – http://www.axis-and-allies-paintworks.com/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?3676
Regards Duggy

Not widely known, the starboard main coolant radiator on the Mk V Trop. is about one inch deeper than the standard Mk V.

I found this to my advantage when sourcing a main radiator for Mk XII EN224. I was puzzled why a radiator was being rejected by a number of parties, higher on the financial pecking order. 🙂

Mark

My late grandfather was on USS Wasp as part of the RAF party (while I live in the US, I’m English). There’s a possibility that the performance was affected by paint!

I posted this some time ago (here: http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?48728-The-Malta-Spitfire-U-2), so I’ll simply repost:

Both my father and I remember him saying that the Spitfires were painted with deck paint from the US stores during the voyage. I remember him also saying that they repainted them several times on the way, and were quite surprised when they actually took off due to the extra weight of the paint! I suspect they were delivered in desert camouflage, I seem to remember him saying that at one stage there was some green added to the scheme.

I also remember him saying that the underside was repainted at least once, but I couldn’t say what colour.

Unfortunately by the time I was old enough to realise this was “significant” information, his memory wasn’t sufficiently good to recall it. [i.e. – when I tried to confirm the above information that Dad and I recalled from earlier conversations, he no longer remembered]

I think the fact that both my father and I recall him talking about using deck paint from USN stores is significant, as at the time none of us had been exposed to the debate about what the colour was – it was just ‘Grandad sharing his war stories’.

Some sources claim the intention was to remove the cannon and keep as spares, but it seems that no-one told Malta this. Of the two bases, Takali initially flew them with 4 cannon and found the aircraft’s climb and handling adversely effected (source Laddie Lucas, 249 Sq), so removed a pair. 601 Sq at the other base retained the 4 cannon for some time, as can be seen in the photos of Barnham’s aircraft after his fifth kill. Additional evidence of lack of preplanning can be seen in that it is often the outer cannon that was retained, whereas the standard fit is to have the cannon in the inner position.

Fighter Command’s intentions were to standardise on a 4 cannon armament and the FAA was also looking for that on the Seafire, but the Hispano was a pretty hefty piece of kit, and four of them didn’t become standard on the Spitfire until the revised wing and aileron of the XX-series.

There is still some dispute over the exact penalty of the Vokes filter. Trials in the UK and Australia showed only small effect, but front line units report much more noticeable degradation.

The blunt spinner does indeed show that it is the De Havilland propeller.

Very few Mk.Vs are seen on Malta with the original cowling, but it shows some optimism to think of a Mk.V coping with a Gustav anyway. It all helps, of course.

They were standard Vc (trop,) with 4 cannon, since the idea was to remove 2, on arrival, and use them for spares; only 2 were armed with 60 rounds each, and the .303″ Brownings were left off because Malta said they already had enough.
The tropical airframe was used because those versions had a larger oil tank, which was needed over the extra distance of the delivery flight; Malta didn’t want the tropical Mark because it was 10-15 mph slower (according to Air Ministry figures,) but they had no choice. Park did ask for conversion kits, to turn them back to standard, because they couldn’t cope with the 109G, but I’ve no idea if he got them before he eventually got the Mk.IX.
The ferry tanks were 90-gallon capacity. They could be jettisoned, but, at first, pilots were told to hang on to them, due to shortages, so they could be flown back, in a transport, and re-used.

Hi Jack,

No-one could describe you as ignorant.:o

1. I think they are Spit Vc’s
2. 90 gallon slipper tank I think – fixed
3. Not sure if they were easy mod but I think performance was significantly affected.
4. Not sure about prop.

Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will be along shortly.

Cheers

Jason

Jack
Im’e no Spitfire expert, they will be along to answer your question no doubt, but the filter was designed and manufactured by a company called Vokes, a link here to the company history which still exists. http://www.vokesair.com/about/our-story/
I believe the loss to performance was negligible, which is some achievement.

Richard